From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:57:31 +0300 Message-ID: <831qdlo084.fsf@gnu.org> References: <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <83lebyu5yx.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f43123d7dee59461@heytings.org> <835y2xo1a5.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f4312391906f6101@heytings.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8973"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 23 16:58:10 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1quwNe-00025Y-0j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:58:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quwN5-0006vx-Sk; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:57:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quwN3-0006vo-Nz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:57:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quwN3-0003uv-Bk; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:57:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=eQqalBNn8D+X3EjAUmu4aVIcaH8uQL9Crn4zCM84s8U=; b=gVSFSNi5OW1w K4S0YQYD5InZ1oD6UO55vyOWJV1Z36hl7ujNTaxRpxtG/cHNlOy5RlhnvKuj7uxoq2RVTXD8wcliz SAER5ZDtLmowXAWHZF5Gr4jgFffeIQJ+SzeBx7VFwBkbQRb0biT+cLqB3KVk4iXXMYDoZVOm27ovD NwQ04pJYAtDbLxPGiow6uMRh1W+ZjTvPIbNq3QYAFmlQQWeceaAGIsOwnga3ZxS4C5qUdXUyKCfB2 /JJkimkhsUyPlkJzgP848Z0C9WBGRhJH6z0OJLwY1TUARvbRX5p5HUTeX2rdEefzs/kusvcUQAPMh BhJCcSRfVSFB9awMj8jiYA==; In-Reply-To: <4684f4312391906f6101@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:48:29 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311719 Archived-At: > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:48:29 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > >> Pretty much everything loads cl-lib nowadays, for example: > > > > That's not the issue, from my POV. the issue is whether all these > > places load cl-lib for good reasons. If not, they shouldn't. > > > > Are any of these commands loading cl-lib without a good reason? > > > > I don't know. I was only pointing out that the debugger is just one of > the many cases, and not the most likely one, in which cl-lib is loaded. > I was also hinting that it would perhaps make sense to preload cl-lib, > given that it's practically impossible to use Emacs without loading > cl-lib. It is also "practically impossible" to use Emacs without loading some other packages, like help-fns, for example. But we still don't (and shouldn't) preload them. Preloading unnecessary stuff is a slippery slope that once we start there's no way of knowing where we end. So let's not.