From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:07:58 +0900 Message-ID: <800CACE9-04B0-412A-B91C-DF54B94F62D2@icloud.com> References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <83v9lesapw.fsf@gnu.org> <83pnbms9m8.fsf@gnu.org> <83a72qs4z2.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo5uqoh5.fsf@gnu.org> <838si9qf7s.fsf@gnu.org> <83a72nojgx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="61915"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jean-Christophe Helary , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Dmitry Gutov , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 17:08:51 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVciB-000G0C-MZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 17:08:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58058 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVciA-0003c7-No for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 11:08:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55360) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVchW-0002SC-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 11:08:10 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-tydg10011801.me.com ([17.58.6.52]:47393) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVchU-0003Na-Ne for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 11:08:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1588604886; bh=TDRpSNJzbVXGeIkqTiNOo2bR3pdTe3fRbrgLdARRHgc=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=H8BqOyFJLYrs7Xm80XgbD63cd2amaQOrOmN17WiNzfMCGEygNZaZ+xT5dptcPTBMq t5/NYgHX8mlET6VBdH6PVcaaHRQhJX+ud6LLB8vFtsreZz26tlv+w8b9KvWOgyfjBf vy8zVRSFkiyqlhSNilgnaB5yEq9r3xEsAYoW6Yr9+ci5y8DtQVcL5Ik+EENzsfqPqC UwmlTejOVvN5JevUNzQ2xlZ6Ecncc07K4Kq5K0wWBS5WgYgn3IqhS3ixQ8BXn8yX/b 6dHoUe684rX0f7KYhsjRt+OPRlCkaB9Ttj7cOmhTq+/NRLNgympZ5+AG2DOJndHSUR BJJUFN5RG1CRw== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-tydg10011801.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9E366606F6; Mon, 4 May 2020 15:08:02 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83a72nojgx.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-04_09:2020-05-04, 2020-05-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005040125 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.52; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-tydg10011801.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/04 11:08:07 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, KHOP_DYNAMIC=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248837 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii 작성: >> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >> Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:47:11 +0900 >> Cc: Philippe Vaucher , >> dgutov@yandex.ru, >> rms@gnu.org, >> joaotavora@gmail.com, >> monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >>>> For quite a lot of people, this page >>>> http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp_string_functions.html is much simpler >>>> to use & learn from than this page >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Strings-and-Characters.html >>>> >>>> It does not mean that the later page is bad, it is actually more >>>> complete, >>>> better documented, already grouped >>>> in topics... and yet, a lot of people prefer the first page... >>>> straight to >>>> the point, simple examples. >>>> >>>> Please tell me if you are able to understand this, if you cannot I'll >>>> try to >>>> explain further. >>> >>> I understand this very well, I'm just astonished to hear that this is >>> all the documentation you and some others want to see or have. >> >> Nobody claimed that it was *all* we want to see or have. Quite the >> contrary. > > Maybe we are in two different discussions, then. Because the above > clearly says: "this page (ergoemacs) is much simpler to use & learn > from than this page (ELisp)". IOW, it sees the ergoemacs page as a > better _replacement_ for the ELisp manual. If this doesn't mean that > the ELisp manual is not needed, then maybe I have basic > misunderstanding of written English. So to me, the ergoemacs page is useful for various situations like… * One knows basic Elisp knowledge but have not used any string APIs. So one wants to know various operations that Emacs already provides. * One have already written Elisp to be familiar enough about the string APIs, knows that there are APIs that allow replacing string using a regex, but doesn’t remember the replace-regexp-in-string name. The Elisp manual in the other hand, is useful for situations like… * One wants to know exactly how strings work in Elisp - what happens if the argument of string-to-number is a garbage string? * Would there be some options to number-to-string, like bases? Or should I implement them myself? > Or maybe your opinion is different from that of Philippe, but then I > was responding to Philippe, and in any case "nobody claimed" is then > inaccurate, isn't it? > >> There is a need for such a summary *that also links at the current >> documentation*, as I also replied. >> >> That "summary" (regardless of how it is implemented) does not exist >> today and >> that is partly what this whole thread is about. > > AFAIU, the request for such a summary is quite new in this discussion, > and is definitely not "what this whole thread is about.". Most of > this thread is about something entirely different: changing the names > of APIs so that completion could be more useful for discovery.