From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Barry Fishman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 11:31:55 -0400 Message-ID: <7no894z9jo.fsf@ecube.ecubist.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21559"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:Ipi3o5aChN8QK/l8Omi8cIRiVcw= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 07 17:35:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNd8G-0005QQ-H4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:35:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34430 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNd8F-0001We-9g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 11:35:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46938) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNd4w-0007X2-UD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 11:32:06 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:41098) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNd4v-0005km-C2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 11:32:06 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNd4t-0000Sr-Id for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:32:03 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274253 Archived-At: On 2021-09-06 23:16:19 -04, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > `C-x` for "Cut" has been standard for a lot more than a decade. > > > CUA was first published in 1987, so nearly three and a half decaces :-) > > Emacs (the PDP-10 version) was first released in 1976. > CUA came second. Lets just say I find this slow creep of small changes, without any understandable, cohesive long term plan, and requiring a continual effort on my part to keep my own environment stable, a large continual sink of my time. Emacs has also evolved over that amount of time. Commands are fit into an integrated whole, and changed to make things work better. Subsets of commands are used in other tools like Readline, and seen in programs like Rlwrap, Bash, Clisp, and Gnome (prior to GTK-4). It was available also for a long time in Firefox. In the applications where it has be removed, there is also a gross removal of a lot of functionality (Such as Gnome-4). Why is it important to have C-p print the current page in Firefox rather than fit into a set of commands to move the cursor in a text entry buffer? Text entry has become hell for me, when my fingers go off and do thinks automatically. How often do you want to print the current page, and you can just select print from a menu. I'm concerned that no attention seem so be given to Emacs's whole functionality and ease of use, but just shoe-horning in things like CUA, which to my mind has a negative effect on usability. That is even ignoring having to relearn a large set commands that in the end is less well thought out. Do you have accepted code for all the programs that use Emacs style bindings? How are we supposed to navigate the transition where many of us use a variety of systems with varying version of Emacs and Readline being used. In particular when working on slow moving systems like Debian servers, where we may not have the ability to rebuild (and sometimes rethink) all our tools. I made my major transition to Emacs when I was forced by my employer to move my development environment from Sun to Windows. Emacs was a way to exist on Windows while I transitioned my working environment. I found that Emacs often had better tools for me that he Microsoft ones I was learning. It certainly had a better C++ class browser. [I wasn't there very long.] I find that making the transition easier for people raised on Microsoft or Apple to GNU/Linux should include the appreciation of an environment where you no longer had to sit by and hope that your platform made things better for you, but you could gain some control yourself. Otherwise we are just making GNU/Linux (Gnome|Plasma) no better, and often worse that the heavily financed platform they would be leaving. -- Barry Fishman