From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why are so many great packages not trying to get included in GNU Emacs? WAS: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 18:36:31 +0300 Message-ID: <7c01ed6b2b99761b4c7265b88d6257695d19af5e.camel@yandex.ru> References: <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1wi7a8o.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdteybt.fsf@runbox.com> <87368wrvf5.fsf@yahoo.com> <86k126d83n.wl-me@enzu.ru> <83pnbyckvv.fsf@gnu.org> <4923d7e98f5ed816a7569093dbc673153adcea88.camel@yandex.ru> <874krex73o.fsf@gmail.com> <87eeqctgb4.fsf@elephly.net> <83wo43xom6.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1u9vnr3.fsf@gnu.org> <09632e8ec343ddee558b18f811ef6da77e594f55.camel@yandex.ru> <83pn9tvhta.fsf@gnu.org> <83mu4xvari.fsf@gnu.org> <1faa5c4154ea49a2d10d16741dfad8451ef27abd.camel@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="121256"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.3 Cc: rekado@elephly.net, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, dgutov@yandex.ru To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_T=E1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 21 17:37:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jn22T-000VQ4-60 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:37:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46804 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jn22S-0000yH-84 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 11:37:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44432) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jn21S-0008OL-Et for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 11:36:42 -0400 Original-Received: from forward105p.mail.yandex.net ([77.88.28.108]:51486) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jn21P-0001EZ-2i; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 11:36:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mxback20j.mail.yandex.net (mxback20j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::114]) by forward105p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 9121C4D40921; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 18:36:33 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: from myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net (myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c12:1725:0:640:95c1:fb78]) by mxback20j.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id i9nX1OweBu-aXOesW1s; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 18:36:33 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1592753793; bh=sO+v3mLsLA6KWvBx0beRhO0K9LQNr8OwbX/wYT0Hp2Q=; h=In-Reply-To:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:References:Date; b=fBOwkJY6NQ+aGmtNpSQbCps0y5LjOc5gEEpnv2nLI0p9U9RJbQNuEj5I/KAVKyXzU zLUIg1ZPJJrIAre5hdNaWFeOtbHhwqbv02y43xpLtBpiLz9RtCDRPa3Zv/N6jKgBG/ 1y/otG2dMSmkfwfipJkFuF4eqBv4nrkrkdDEzH0Y= Authentication-Results: mxback20j.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Original-Received: by myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id Jf2XsX9p0x-aWG8IjiZ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 18:36:32 +0300 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=77.88.28.108; envelope-from=hi-angel@yandex.ru; helo=forward105p.mail.yandex.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/06/21 11:36:34 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252494 Archived-At: On Sun, 2020-06-21 at 14:49 +0100, João Távora wrote: > On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 22:31 Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > > > I also don't think GNU projects are any good to make examples of. This > > is my > > > > general experience of seeing how new projects get under GNU umbrella to > > get > > > > never heard of (which I attribute to points listed in my starting mail, > > > > since > > > > most of them are unspecific to Emacs). > > > > > > I hope you realize how saying that makes your opinions matter much > > > less, do you? > > > > No, I don't. > > I think what Eli and Ricardo (and now me), are trying to alert you to is that > starting a discussion about working methods of GNU projects from a position of > such a broad disdain of such projects ("not any good to make examples of") is > nonsensical and likely leads to your arguments being ignored, regardless of > how sophisticated they are (even though they aren't). Thank you for elaboration! Well, someone's position per se can not make her/his arguments more or less valid. They may contradict the position, or they may be less or more valid… But it is impossible to make correct judgement of arguments by looking at position alone. Those (hopefully) hypothetical people basically smugly declare "I am right because I know I am". Great for them! Bad for others though, because even if they were right, no one but themselves will know that. Idk, maybe because I had too wide experience, having contributed to dozens of unrelated projects, having used a dozen of programming languages in various paradigms, and having tried to grok various mathematical stuff, but one thing I used to understand is: "However I am sure I am right, I may turn out to be wrong". I wish those mentioned people had that understanding.