From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7acb6970-cbc4-48b2-84c7-afee108d689f@default> References: <83tw12cocz.fsf@gnu.org> <83wp5xat6i.fsf@gnu.org> <2d035e42-006b-e76e-2b3f-75f2dfd87bb7@taydin.org> <58ac4c14-3f26-4b21-806a-aa2326ce3d2b@default> <98f114b6-191e-43f9-b505-9362b9382508@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503523320 3701 195.159.176.226 (23 Aug 2017 21:22:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 21:22:00 +0000 (UTC) To: =?utf-8?B?Q2zDqW1lbnQgUGl0LUNsYXVkZWw=?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 23 23:21:55 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dkd61-0000ZX-MZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 23:21:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45719 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkd66-0000Xf-ND for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 17:21:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52817) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkd60-0000XQ-EX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 17:21:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkd5x-0007YV-9l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 17:21:52 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:50242) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkd5x-0007YF-14 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 17:21:49 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v7NLLjKL025220 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 Aug 2017 21:21:45 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7NLLj0L007786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 Aug 2017 21:21:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v7NLLjq3014325; Wed, 23 Aug 2017 21:21:45 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6774.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217740 Archived-At: > > I still haven't seen an /argument *why*/ we shouldn't have users /opt > > in/ to turn on use of the package system. Other than the simple > > observation that some users have gotten confused about how to > > appropriately turn it on. > > ... external packages ... need to be installed separately. > I'd like this to be as easy as possible. I've already said that I too think it should be easy. I think it should be easier than it is now, more obvious, and less error prone. Why isn't the package-system doc improvement started, as the first thing to do? You might be surprised how much better doc might help with user confusion. Seems like that would be a good thing for those who are familiar with the package mgr and are strong proponents of it to work on. > Enabling the package manager by default is one way to do this. One way, sure. Not necessary, just to make things easy, but it is presumably one way. Overkill, I'd suggest. If you have an Emacs feature that is unclear or overly complicated to use, and yet it is very popular, it seems like the first thing to work on would *not* be just turning it on by default but making it clearer (both the interface and the doc) and easier to use. > I'd like us to give more visibility to Emacs packages, because I commonly > run into people who use package in Atom or Visual Studio Code, but not in > Emacs (and that's not because Emacs provides the corresponding features > without an extra packages) That is *not* a great reason to enable something by default. That is a bit like the fellow who adds a new feature and wants it turned on by default because it is a shiny new feature. "Turn it on so people are aware of it", we hear occasionally. Not a good argument. The use of packages by Emacs users has taken off very quickly and sees no sign of abating. I see no argument that we need to turn on the package manager by default just to let users know that there is a package manager and there are packages. Emacs users know both. YAGNI. That's not where they need help with packages. > (Also: having the package manager enabled by default allows us to > split some functionality out of core and into separate packages) All you need is the package mgr for that. You don't need it enabled by default. > > `delete-selection-mode' is not turned on by default (but it should be). > `transient-mark-mode' was not turned on by default for decades (it finall= y > was, thank goodness, but only after a lot of time and debate). And so on. >=20 > I agree with this too, and I see package.el as another feature that shoul= d > be enabled by default. The question (still) is why.