From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Geoffrey Teale Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: visualization of CVS commits Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:47:34 +0200 Message-ID: <7FA6485A-B19F-4667-BCE7-52BC01494CA3@cmedresearch.com> References: <20080624.080153.252133130.wl@gnu.org> <87vdzyfx7s.fsf@gmail.com> <858wwtle30.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85myl9jtzm.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1214504884 27911 80.91.229.12 (26 Jun 2008 18:28:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:28:04 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 26 20:28:49 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KBwD9-0002me-Rb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:28:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39931 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KBwCJ-00022L-UX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:27:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KBmCk-0005yc-Ty for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:47:42 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KBmCk-0005yC-Fk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:47:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=38287 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KBmCk-0005y1-9v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:47:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:8847) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KBmCj-0005MC-Vl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:47:42 -0400 Original-Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KBmCi-0006st-SO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:47:41 -0400 Original-Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c7so197321nfi.26 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:47:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:to:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date :references:x-mailer:from:sender; bh=KzXq2mSezEjGhj+nexsQSzDj9aStvElXHGXxWnR76G8=; b=thFjlW2XlCwlTrWS0wGkG7RChPuxzQqV2sJxmVBC1uRXgwUZ35FFjsKhZRsKnuStDu OH4j6mrTq0bvfc/ba/Mknlcw6T826HxtY4jpeAg7/zmORoQlrfL/dRzm+eAHCIdHUv+f ovDQsnhJqebL3cqo8AphzgFOSMP/nMXE4s4kE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:to:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer:from:sender; b=RpzFWSx+iNhigwhqbVb2Okki8x6whRJ6C8Yhi3tCM86WNI+jppYh0TQQpE80wmFL40 FVoQN7OA2SJOUzqPvXp4QRvsWN58QZf99L/Mgcjnp9Zkn8p1ttLr56rKjA8nWjlAPut2 fqysqh22CMRIPUz76ZCQitQIqSlqw4KhbhFSA= Original-Received: by 10.210.25.19 with SMTP id 19mr2732257eby.27.1214466458818; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?192.168.0.102? ( [88.217.187.54]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm2678202gve.9.2008.06.26.00.47.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:47:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <85myl9jtzm.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:27:50 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:99970 Archived-At: On Jun 25, 2008, at 7:37 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > Geoffrey Teale writes: > >> On Jun 25, 2008, at 5:38 PM, David Kastrup wrote: >> >>> Richard M Stallman writes: >>> >>>> I also find the demo very cool, and I think releasing Emacs 23 >>>> accompanied with such a video would have a very positive effect. >>>> >>>> The use of Flash is very bad for free software. If we release >>>> a video, we should release it _only_ in Ogg Theora. >>> >>> I am not sure, but isn't the version of Flash supported by the Gnash >>> player reasonably documented? >> >> To draw an analogy: OpenOffice.org exists therefore it is OK to >> distribute emacs documents in MS Word format. > > The analogy falls down exactly at the point of my question, because MS > Word format is not documented at all reasonably. It also falls down > otherwise since Emacs has a builtin info reader, but no builtin Ogg > Theora reader. > Well, you say a 'version' of flash is documented. Now I will freely =20= admit my argument is a little trite, but what I mean to say is that =20 Emacs should not be seen to promote the use of a format that isn't =20 entirely free. My, admittedly poor, analogy was trying to show that =20= the question of whether or not a tool is available to view the =20 material which is free (how ever it came about, through documentation =20= or otherwise) is not a complete solution if the format itself is not =20 completely free, in it's most current, complete version. If you =20 send someone the message that flash is OK, how are they to distinguish =20= between documented version 8 that *might*, if you're really lucky, =20 work in Gnash and version 9 which will not? >> Some people may agree with that statement, I for one do not. > > So you make up a strawman which has absolutely no usable connection =20= > with > my question or Richard's statement and then sneer at it. > I am sorry. I really did not mean to sneer - I simply feel strongly =20 about flash and felt compelled to support an argument against that =20 format. > That's all very nice, but I am still interested about the original > question. Going back to the beginning - I think making such a video available =20 would certainly be quite cool and is the sort of material that could =20 easily get pushed around "viraly" on sites like reddit. I see no =20 downside to that idea. > One problem that I see with Ogg Theora that it is intended, as far =20 > as I > know, for real-life movies. Just like JPEGS are rather unsuitable for > screen shots when compared to well-made PNGs (except when a large =20 > amount > of screen is covered by a photograph) because of a lousy tradeoff > between artifacts and compression ratio (PNGs tend to be quite smaller > and sharper), I'd expect Ogg Theora to be similarly encumbered for > screen animations. I see the point, but I'd contend that the freedom issues are more =20 important (to me at least). There must be some suitable, free =20 software, animation tools out there. > Feel free to point out when I am mistaken. But please try addressing > what I have been saying instead of something else. Sorry, I simply felt strongly about it, that is all. Regards, --=20 Geoffrey Teale Software and Technology Consultant, M=FCnchen tealeg@member.fsf.org