From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Post-22.1 development? Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:25:50 +0100 Message-ID: <7D7C0678-2728-4054-8032-D7072E57BE7A@gmail.com> References: <878xb05ras.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <864plnorgn.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <85ps4ap0kh.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1181255164 26644 80.91.229.12 (7 Jun 2007 22:26:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 22:26:04 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs- devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 08 00:25:59 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HwQQZ-0004TE-Bh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:25:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQQY-00027A-PZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:25:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQQV-00026v-Uj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:25:55 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQQU-00026j-F3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:25:54 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQQU-00026g-9d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:25:54 -0400 Original-Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.170]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HwQQT-0005Vp-Si for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:25:54 -0400 Original-Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 34so881375ugf for ; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=qLnKQnFz0Q5+D2VxVSuptocKou130FSGgFnLcpmvmFq0AKLI20qBqvsaNGhYDWCvQZN56rwzAb/8N791hgvZseq1JMNg8dqA24PMZWMtauvasJumlnfW5Ds8JO27tmZXw+APuvMWvhbZ7Xbp//JNycUtomkasG4lBjVWko/uWdU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=mmzbO1+czlqp5bHJ/Fiuo0nfouKmN1+p8EWu6cDsWRvxTJYnwavdeVPnZuuTKD7tQ7wXgSqhDH5C3M2dNo0nlZ8dmAWMsOOnA3U30zNrlkM5xGoBgByzAcYbCYipL+iHb9bPCP1+PZBkxyTgYj3E9us4U3AbhsM0OCC2kVCT4yY= Original-Received: by 10.82.186.5 with SMTP id j5mr4159780buf.1181255152569; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?10.5.5.200? ( [81.86.42.77]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 7sm2301439nfv.2007.06.07.15.25.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:25:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 (Google crawlbot) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:72444 Archived-At: On 7 Jun 2007, at 20:48, Sean O'Rourke wrote: > I have recently experienced similar "integration with a modern > desktop environment" on Mac OS X, where we have the choice > between standard Carbon Emacs and Aquamacs, which tries to behave > more like other Mac applications. As a longtime Emacs user on > many platforms, I find Aquamacs highly unpleasant. Many of its > "enhancements," like widespread use of variable-width fonts, > color themes, and pop-up frames, are counterproductive. I generally recommend Carbon Emacs to people who have been using Emacs for a long time. Even though we have a fair amount of switchers who come from the "Emacs way" of doing things and are now quite happy to alter what they are used to, it appears that Aquamacs gets a lot of users who wouldn't like to use Emacs otherwise, and it doesn't attract that many experienced Emacs users like you. Not giving in to demands to make it more "Emacs" like and less "Mac" like is part of the concept - we can't please everyone. And besides, there's a perfectly nice and very Emacs-like Emacs (Carbon Emacs!) available for the platform. I wouldn't want the GNU Emacs to be "modernized" with respect to the UI where the changes would annoy long-time users. However, I would want it to offer some of these modernizations as an option in 23. For example: - better support of variable-width fonts - better support of editing in variable-size windows (e.g. replacement or addendum to longlines-mode) - optional replacement of windows inside frames with multiple frames (*) - toolbars using the system's toolkit rather than something homegrown - toolkit based dialogs with a redesigned customization hierarchy rather than customization buffers This would make it a lot easier for new users to use Emacs (on all platforms). The extension marked with (*) is actually implemented in Aquamacs using a mode called `one-buffer-one-frame-mode'. This is a hack that I'd like to rewrite as a patch to the Emacs sources so that it can eventually be offered as a standard option.