From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A system for localizing documentation strings Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:29:44 +0900 Message-ID: <7BDC8371-E3A0-43A0-B060-E34011930FF6@mx6.tiki.ne.jp> References: <795F38F4-7253-47DC-97DD-53BED4F0AB97@mx6.tiki.ne.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1185525015 7123 80.91.229.12 (27 Jul 2007 08:30:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:30:15 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 27 10:30:09 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IELD7-0007ZC-Fq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:30:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IELD6-0008Tl-OI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:30:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IELD2-0008RS-JO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:30:04 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IELD1-0008OD-1s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:30:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IELD0-0008OA-VC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:30:02 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp9.tiki.ne.jp ([218.40.30.106]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IELD0-0005Nu-7z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:30:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.11.4] (pl062.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp [210.136.182.62]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp9.tiki.ne.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l6R8Ts8U018847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:29:55 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-detected-kernel: FreeBSD 5.3-5.4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:75635 Archived-At: On 27 juil. 07, at 14:04, Richard Stallman wrote: > Because as soon as we have a system that allows for > localization we > can expect to have "native" code written and so we'll have to > reference the source language that _will_ be different from > English. > > We aim to discourage that. The primary language of GNU implementation > is English. All functions should be documented in English, in > addition > to whatever other languages are supported. > > If someone's English doc string is not well written, that's as if the > code were not well written. Someone will suggest an improvement. I am sorry if what I wrote was unclear. I understand that GNU software is English based, just like the GPL license is valid only in English. I have no specific problem with that. What I intended to propose was a generic system to localize elisp files/elisp systems. Such a system would directly benefit emacs, of course, since emacs is the main provider of elisp code. And since emacs is English based it makes perfect sense to provide a system that is backward compatible with the current "English only" system. But the system should not "hardcode" English=default into its behavior (ie by not identifying English with a language code etc). It is very conceivable that emacs extensions are created for a specific "market" that corresponds to a language community and the localization mechanism should provide developers with a way to use their language as their system's default. > Jason had it right: > > That is the way it must be for any globally used software. > Perhaps as a > Frenchman living in Japan you feel that is unfair, but the fact > is that > English is the most widely understood language there is. Which assertion do you refer to ? 1) Since emacs started from an English speaking community (as a lot of major software packages, like MS Office for example) I suppose the practical way to deal with localization does involve starting from English. I have nothing against that. 2) As a Frenchman living in Japan and in Japanese, and having a fair command of English I don't think it is unfair at all, but in a number of cases there are practical considerations that make English centered processes a waste of time: some elisp code may be designed with a relatively limited scope and technically forcing the use of English because elisp=emacs=GNU seems a little far fetched. 3) Such a postulate shows little understanding of what "freedom" means, especially in the context of technology. It also shows little understanding of the necessity of native language computer literacy activities to reach the goals set by the FSF in particular. Jean-Christophe Helary