Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...]

Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...]

[Drew Adams]

> Subject: bug#15399: 24.3.50; Eshell redirection broken in HEAD
> 
> > Buffer is read-only: #<buffer *Messages*>
>
> That's unrelated. etc/NEWS:
>     ** The *Messages* buffer is created in a new major mode
>    `messages-buffer-mode', and read-only.

Why?  Where was the discussion in emacs-devel@gnu.org about this
change to *Messages*?  No other bug was referenced above, so I guess
this was not due to a reported bug or enhancement request.

Is this change perhaps a response to this old thread from 2010?
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-02/msg00078.html
That is the only discussion I've seen about this question.

FWIW, I disagree with this change, and to similar changes, such as
what was done to *Help* - see bug #10308:
http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10308.

I often debug using `message' to write to *Messages*, if using
the debugger is problematic (typically during Isearch or minibuffer
interaction).  And I write stuff there directly also, to guide
myself.

Now (for what reason?), *Messages* is in its own mode, and it is
read-only.  I don't have an Emacs build with the change yet, so I
don't know just what `messages-buffer-mode' (a bad name, BTW) is.

But if this is anything like what was done to *Help* then toggling
`read-only' off will not suffice, and I will now need to change
the mode for yet another buffer.

And why?  Just because someone thought it convenient to hit `q'
(instead of, say, `C-x 0') to quit *Messages*?

Or was there some other reason?  A good reason?  Why no proposal
and discussion before this change was made?  Or did I somehow
miss the thread?

Yes, I can fiddle to work around this change, as one user.  But
why is this good for Emacs?  I edit text in *Messages* (and in
*Help*, to prepare doc strings), and I doubt I'm the only one who
does.  What is so beneficial about this change (after almost 40
years of *Messages* being normally editable)?

Re: Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...]

[Glenn Morris]

Ah, the expected "where was the discussion" email arrives on schedule.

The discussion is referenced in the commit message.

RE: Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...]

[Drew Adams]

> Ah, the expected "where was the discussion" email arrives on schedule.
> The discussion is referenced in the commit message.

Oh, wunderbar.  In place of your sarcasm, why not post the commit
message here, or provide a direct reference to the discussion?
Why make people hunt for it?

(FWIW, I can't even get to the ChangeLog file at http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs/trunk/annotate/head:/src/ChangeLog?sort=date now, which is where the commit message is, I guess.
It just times out.  But I'll keep trying, unless you decide to be
helpful and post the information here.)

RE: Why the change to *Messages*? [was: bug#15399...]

[Drew Adams]

> > Ah, the expected "where was the discussion" email arrives on schedule.
> > The discussion is referenced in the commit message.
> 
> Oh, wunderbar.  In place of your sarcasm, why not post the commit
> message here, or provide a direct reference to the discussion?
> Why make people hunt for it?
> 
> (FWIW, I can't even get to the ChangeLog file at
> http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs/trunk/annotate/head:/src/ChangeLog?sort
> =date now, which is where the commit message is, I guess.
> It just times out.  But I'll keep trying, unless you decide to be
> helpful and post the information here.)

OK, I finally got to it:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-02/msg00135.html

And that is the same thread I referenced,from 3 years ago.

(Much of that thread does not show up here:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-02/msg00078.html.
But even though the link it shows appears as already visited, the `Next
by thread' link, does add another message at the bottom of the page
(one at a time).  Odd UI - you should be able to view another whole
page of the thread, not just one message at a time.)