From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Jan D." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: override_redirect of X Window System Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:08:54 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <785B19D7-EF9C-11D7-B9F3-00039363E640@swipnet.se> References: <1064483783.3026.4.camel@littlegreen> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1064524795 26737 80.91.224.253 (25 Sep 2003 21:19:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:19:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 25 23:19:53 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A2dWj-0007oi-00 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:19:53 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A2de3-0003zQ-00 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:27:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A2dO5-00036R-IW for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:10:57 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.22) id 1A2dN0-0002o9-9C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:09:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.22) id 1A2dMy-0002nM-1h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:09:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [193.201.16.94] (helo=stubby.bodenonline.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A2dMx-0002j9-Gu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:09:47 -0400 Original-Received: from accessno42.bodenonline.com (accessno42.bodenonline.com [193.201.16.44]) by stubby.bodenonline.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h8PLrwoa003826; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:54:04 +0200 Original-To: Mike Hearn In-Reply-To: <1064483783.3026.4.camel@littlegreen> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:16639 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:16639 > On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 19:17, Jan D. wrote: >> And that is what I said. > > I'm confused then. Why is it relevant? I don't think the functionality > in that bug lets apps place themselves above the panel, I think it's > there so users can move them there. Because if you can move the title bar above y=0, you basically have fullscreen. But Metacity don't let you do that. Every other WM allows that. > >> The good things about standards is that there are so many to choose >> from :-) > > Not here :) There is only one protocol for fullscreening apps that I'm > aware of. Yes, but it is not a "standard" in the sence, "included in the X specification". Freedesktop is separate from X, which is defined by the X organisation. So you can be complient to X without doing EWMH. > >> Seriously, there are WMs that where created before EWMH existed. One >> is CDE, which is used a lot. Others in use still, are fvwm 1.x, >> olvwm, >> mwm and KDE 1.x. > > Sure, but so what? There are people who still use Netscape 1, does that > mean we shouldn't use anything not available in that version on the > web? In the case of Emacs, yes. Emacs has the unique property of being the same in many platforms. It would be a bad thing (IMHO) if full Emacs functionallity relied on running Gnome or KDE. Emacs is the same on all X implementations. It would be a bad thing if we changed that. >> If we add a solution to Emacs that says "call this function to get >> fullscreen" and then it does not work on peoples WMs, I think we are >> going to see bug reports. > > If it's done using override-redirect it will generate more. Believe me, > this is the technique we use currently in Wine, and it breaks pretty > much everything (z-ordering, panels etc). There's a reason that > protocol > was developed, and it's because it's badly needed. I don't disagreee on the protocol, I think it is a good thing. But how it should be incorporated into Emacs is another thing. If you read my post you will see I talk against unsing override-rederict. I rather put a general mechanism that works on every platform at the C level and then create something like EWMH.el at the lisp level. After all, platform specific lisp packages is not uncommon, but the C level should (again IMHO) be generic. > >> And if there is one response I don't like >> w.r.t. things that doesn't work, it is "please change your >> unrelated app/version/OS... to something else". > > Hacks for ancient/buggy WMs don't belong in emacs. If somebody insists > on using software that doesn't keep up with the times, then they should > be prepared to sacrifice some features. I have no statistics, but I think there are more users running CDE (without EWMH) than Gnome (or any other EWMH complient WM) today. Hacks for old stuff do exist in Emacs. WMs that don't implement EWMH is not "ancient/buggy", the spec has only existed for a year or so. If it where five years it would be a different matter. > >> Exposing XSendEvent can be potentially useful for more things than >> fullscreen. For example, expand vertically and/or horizontally that >> are also in EWMH. > > That's true, but XSendEvent as an API is rather cumbersome, not to > mention large. I'm not sure it makes sense to try and expose so much of > Xlib in elisp. It is not much different from the selection stuff that is exposed to elisp today. Jan D.