From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:37:14 +0300 Message-ID: <777a890b-cc3f-5338-4eea-129b66c29451@yandex.ru> References: <864kmzupp0.fsf@akirakyle.com> <835z7e2ouj.fsf@gnu.org> <86v9fet5sg.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83imbe1040.fsf@gnu.org> <86pn5luak4.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83362g27y6.fsf@gnu.org> <124a89a6-353c-91f8-8a1a-d2a807db28e3@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10392"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, ak@akirakyle.com, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 19 14:43:33 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kUUVh-0002Zh-Dd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 14:43:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52394 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUUVg-00043P-DY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:43:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUUPh-00014V-D5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:37:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]:41807) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUUPf-0007BT-9E; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:37:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id x7so13647305eje.8; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:37:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4QGE4EC3lqSfl7aWrHdUa+cSUdg0CRGpbZ+WPkak22U=; b=J9fg0gBMrBFSfpnUo7uw9ELms3KwncTcRW0mRZ9LmpQCsFbL+6n9wPznr6x5L36mQ4 LtrDckvF4n/xFpjOeO6FO5UXBaB18nnVgOJ7yiAgEofUF7OInBBWERfad50GWZvLH1yK rdVmcywD7a9rS7cQfCt47Oxq5pgSkw4ddStaCCAz6qVnAED0JhZeRXESpyP8vxIg7gA3 jVXMd/vBP39fPtaAhlRBcxWplJLeMMSMvrw9bGD03/5OA5Jm0HDZVzZMjcHUz9hye90s QqsQNU9UDcIHkX0EXLPV0Qdz/Tt5cylXXae0Nz/KiPXss/9M4EN6Ca4wIGsFXQM9fmjH rqUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4QGE4EC3lqSfl7aWrHdUa+cSUdg0CRGpbZ+WPkak22U=; b=ZUPxjqH9xSVrt4NvjeKahLOFL+wE4yEs3LdDGrZr8jCu14QyEdq5E8IXcLDeuq9xzF SptuVuqWMlyi7eWUqdiQbqWxlQPO4rPbcnl5XUHi4Q1Dylof4VFPkx5YNlKG9bVRnSPr y2cvbobvb/DaEo51GWGeqPYMPwtyd1h410ObAdqlkzxcVUuS2L0K7xbPAHYZEc7GAZ9T aOWwPTQ5qPNYC08fwCdYDd1k3amvpaFscNtvxsUA8tIqQVLs5PxoGo1Wf9xS3uMqPL0B jdzV8AyDeYGSM2BpEbYVSkhWxNf34R5953Vx2Tc9xTPW9Jte5ivBYmbOjKEYhK8uwW02 y7SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532gnqiu5D7kyKgeoHS0jN1lQDdFWHGXZhn/+3JhJtBYWZ16erok HcMENSN5K9f+dCKAh5JWzQ/dHQgZthwgcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfLI0Wegy2C/Aur99bldyyblMfCPnJTQ3d+T3JyKdxRkmA2OJ8SYkI5EYxi7hwErKNhtF/OA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:cc0d:: with SMTP id ml13mr16844687ejb.2.1603111036730; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] ([66.205.71.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id mh2sm10681624ejb.30.2020.10.19.05.37.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:37:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62b; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258107 Archived-At: On 19.10.2020 06:44, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> > do believe if Elisp >> > via Emacs let one do some cool visual stuff, like programming some >> > graphics, and doing drawing in the editor would make it more useful and >> > more efficient. Also I see it as a one brick in making Emacs more >> > popular. I personally think it would be super cool to see Emacs do 3D >> > with Elisp, > > > > Would this be a feature that works acceptably fast > > > only if there is nonfree software in your system load? > > > Like I described, modern Intel GPUs are reasonable fast at OpenGL > > already. > > In the Free World, we don't get the modern Intel GPUs. The computers we can use -- because we can turn off the Management Engine -- are the X200 and T400. Ah, okay. That makes it more of a problem. Have you looked into the use of me_cleaner for computer vendors that cooperate with FSF? Here's a detailed guide, which seems dangerous for random users but can be fine for hardware manufacturers because they can standardize on specific motherboards, etc: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Sakaki/Sakaki%27s_EFI_Install_Guide/Disabling_the_Intel_Management_Engine#Modifying_Firmware_using_me_cleaner.2C_to_Disable_the_IME Also, some vendors have started offering machines with IME disabled (System76, Purism, and, most recently, Dell): https://www.extremetech.com/computing/259879-dell-now-shipping-laptops-intels-management-engine-disabled > Would this feature run fast enough on them? The GPU is Intel GMA 4500, right? We can definitely say that it's possible. From my brief research, people have been running games on it on GNU/Linux, such as Amnesia: Dark Descent and Bit.Trip.Runner (one is a 3D game, another is 2D). This GPU is limited on OpenGL 2.1 only, though, so it might cause problems if whatever wrapper libraries we decide to use require a higher version. Ultimately, I think the question can only be answered with certainty if someone wrote a prototype and then tested it on one of the X200 machines.