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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:45:28 +0900 Message-ID: <74B639DD-3775-4BE7-B0B2-300B5CE62E14@icloud.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> <87d084htcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <149F5B4D-F219-409C-A994-096C777259EC@icloud.com> <87v9lweynz.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="20707"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ndame , Ahmed Khanzada , Stefan Kangas , Joseph Garvin , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 09:46:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4ez-0004xc-0n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:46:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38824 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4ed-0005VT-Dv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:46:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39362) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4e3-00056a-7y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:45:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4e2-0000e3-Dl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:45:39 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com ([17.58.6.49]:55622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ4e1-0000c4-TE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:45:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1587282336; bh=FC+zb5vBbIoYaD5esarRK7UbQE9Z/vVdPLYad5ckjNk=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=nTpv4U9uPG6tNH8VKAVXXlbP9ywdDq+lrrg+lRWP4ycQ6UFwSdxysC9dZd+6D74fE l8RhngXUOxscddgxR/aaoKqaCwcM/ja3nwIxmZjcmupGnB9+M9FKBhcUty6/jYaY5/ 7e/CyrX4IOnEbxUMPD5hCIJbPbYnkRzDvg6Om+uMMTB3hVbvE+Q1SUXCRPXDYQv3uk XVKRUCkc0VNUWXQrGtRNtNuj6RgSWKh/bjYXCN8MhSlLUB7JjbvhHo1XdViOjUVJ0F M6tdvYCNDkVttvdLBx0l4NohCPE6QlETeK8uRFa3NOBwegbH4MY1CiBMtunMzZkYMu mMTQJsSEMqWCQ== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A1D88400F5; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:45:33 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87v9lweynz.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-18_10:2020-04-17, 2020-04-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=48 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=763 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004190071 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.49; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.49 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247291 Archived-At: Po Lu 작성: > 조성빈 writes: > > >> Emacs Lisp as a language and the standard library (the Emacs API) is >> different. For example, the fact that functions and variables have their >> own namespaces is a part of the language, and the functions >> self-insert-command or bury-buffer are parts of the API. > > Do buffer-local variables count as part of the language, or part of the > API? What about text properties in strings? File-local variables? > Primitives like `record_unwind_protect_excursion`? Or how the bytecode > interpreter has a plethora of primitives that only make sense within > Emacs. > > And I would consider `self-insert-command' part of Emacs Lisp the > language, since it is implemented as a subr in C code. I was arguing that the surface area of Emacs is not smaller than VSCode, which makes the exact classification unnecessary. (FYI, I count buffer-local vars as a property of the runtime, text properties are definitely an Emacs API, and `record_unwind_protect_excursion` or other primitives, subrs like `self-insert-command` written in C are all Emacs APIs. The language are things like if-expressions, macros, symbols, etc…) >> You can call them as a whole Emacs Lisp, but that doesn’t mean that >> it’s more easier/simple than VSCode. Yes, Emacs Lisp isn’t a complex >> language like C++, but for outsiders that have never used Lisp, it’s >> hard to approach. > > It's not hard to approach at all. The easy trick is to treat it as an > editor macro language, instead of a Lisp dialect. I spread Emacs to my friends. Unless ones who already know Common Lisp, almost everyone feels that Emacs Lisp is a big hoop. >> Regardless, Emacs can’t stop using Emacs Lisp, so Emacs needs to be the >> reason for users to use Emacs Lisp, not backwards. And that means that >> Emacs should have a great onboarding experience (which is currently not >> true) >> with various packages for so many languages and productivity tools >> (which is >> IMHO true considering all of the packages in GitHub). > > Emacs Lisp (more precisely, the first-class extensiblity) is one of the > main reasons to choose Emacs, and the onboarding experience is exactly > what we're talking about. First class extensibility is probably one of the big reason to use Emacs, but that’s orthogonal to Emacs Lisp. And I can’t say that the onboarding experience is really about Emacs Lisp - users don’t try to add keybindings or custom functions on the first day of use. >> I know, I should report it, but I find that macOS/Windows is considered a >> second-platform here, and I didn't want to take my time writing reports >> just >> to get no feedback. I’ll try to report some today. > > macOS/Windows are considered second-class platforms, when it comes to > features: features not available on free operating systems will not be > available on non-free systems. macOS/Windows are not second-class > platforms, when it comes to fixing bugs not present on free operating > systems. > >> (TBF, I remember trying to report them, searching for duplicates, and >> I saw some >> bug report on the exact same issue I was experiencing. I didn’t know how >> to >> subscribe, so I just thought that it might get fixed.) > > Hm, you can always M-x report-emacs-bug