From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Please reconsider removing the `defadvice' doc (ref: bug #16491) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 14:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <73d938eb-a7cf-4b11-bf48-9d28696f49e4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1407619216 22804 80.91.229.3 (9 Aug 2014 21:20:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 21:20:16 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 09 23:20:09 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XGE3d-0005yZ-4G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 23:20:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57423 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGE3c-0004nC-Kr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:20:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56483) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGE3R-0004lc-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:20:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGE3I-0004jy-Ac for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:19:57 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36349) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGE3I-0004jt-3o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:19:48 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s79LJjhL027478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2014 21:19:46 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s79LJjoX026143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2014 21:19:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s79LJjKY026137 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2014 21:19:45 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:173522 Archived-At: You want to push your replacement for `defadvice'. OK, that's presumably all well and good. No doubt it is the best thing since sliced bread (ou le fil a couper le beurre). But it is a real disservice to users to have removed all of the information about using `defadvice' from the Elisp manual. I *really* hope you will reconsider this decision. Lots of users write or maintain code that works across multiple Emacs versions, including code that uses `defadvice'. Caring about Emacs users means not throwing obstacles at them unnecessarily. Making them hold onto Emacs 24.3 just to have access to the `defadvice' doc is uncalled-for annoyance. Such archaeological digging by users should not be necessary. I can imagine some newbie developer having such a mindset, but it is disappointing - and yes, shameful - that the leadership of GNU Emacs has come to this. At least please consider making this doc available as a separate Info manual, if you insist on not letting users see it in the Elisp manual. Call it "Stupid-Old-Defadvice Manual" if you like. Discourage using `defadvice' anyway you like, short of depriving users of information about it. And no, "I kept the 60KB of docs in the Commentary section of advice.el" is *not* an answer. You might as well have said that you tossed 600 kilos of old literature in the dumpster. "60 KB"! What an attitude! And no, this is not about me. I keep multiple Emacs versions anyway. It is only a relatively minor annoyance to have to bring up an older version to get to this doc. Not everyone who uses or wants to understand `defadvice' in existing code will keep multiple Emacs versions, or will know what version to backtrack to, to find this doc. And even a minor annoyance imposed gratuitously on lots of users is better avoided, especially for something as important and complex as advising functions. Bug #16491, with the same request to restore this doc, was marked "done" back in January. Is "done" the new "wont-fix"? According to NEWS, `defadvice' is not even deprecated. And even if it were to become deprecated, it would presumably - it should - continue to be supported for quite some time. And documented.