From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:41:45 +0200 Message-ID: <7226c389-ebd7-29fd-23b8-c2dbfbf0c1a0@yandex.ru> References: <831ba60af0cbfdd95686@heytings.org> <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> <8735wnjsum.fsf@gnus.org> <83sg4n9jei.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2efhx3e.fsf@gnus.org> <838s6f9g5d.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2efgg3w.fsf@gnus.org> <878s6fgdzu.fsf@gnus.org> <19c1ec9e-a97f-a8ab-b966-edadbc299c39@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5122"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Gregory Heytings , Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers To: Yuri Khan Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 25 00:42:42 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lPD98-0001Do-EX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2021 00:42:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42464 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lPD97-0005Kk-G4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:42:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lPD8K-0004rv-JR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:41:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::436]:38548) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lPD8I-0006wK-Gf; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:41:52 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id z2so480065wrl.5; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:41:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GtS4x5CnvcVI1YkJ0ZucbLUAzXWh8LuMTWOwxFAPKLg=; b=OouplVuTnKy+BTYqHispSbmRm42kT4FtzscMtWH5AGxhSJxpX6odyrDaBVp++98XQ8 uiWHnMIoKnZoEwRsL7tAwhM491nmHFhALv+mOG2gKyzxPBDmXjPjgBxRGlf/G3nCaCtG //1d8uEi475C1PxXWe0uHc61jPdh5BCoR1imysQN6udYWyQ5P8+A2GgkqvCBqmZjuDMi AW3onJJCBgSvRYo4qqRFxS1xR9/yWIvecUN9I/k25kQnRJboREJPC4yeNI/neKjg/XGT J3mXiSpLLWIgZMj4sy4AQ7KruoUcbOU0x8Gk8NSK6LZOiVCmVA/ioJo6WBz22QnaYPWS TTuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GtS4x5CnvcVI1YkJ0ZucbLUAzXWh8LuMTWOwxFAPKLg=; b=KQY9OyWtZMCBUMFQ1hzh8OuL3lK7pfwtGhwU6F6E+5Vxfwlw0231ysBjH0l301A9jZ Zh1dYCatnxjbWryqH6iJvZnliHGOxH7/7j9ysNw2mcHTyRZBwyO/z9I0B8EFMB3MGQk+ Y88DB1oLd/Cys2s2cwCbSnhnDvtvJk7oj0xu5cwibtdBPfxi3PguXsjHKurCnvfFmcTq i5yNtC1QkqObuGp7gEdhrTy0wmuMsc/UbAQdQoXiMy0pJ/TDpeSJkY5zByZuOIO8yvAX tEvcNLOXxPSY/VwDYI+KHVAGk9xt/72r81BHjo+Vf5w+JDVF5L1wCjKVfooGVWdmc6fy h7UQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LwurTJhUNAano0Fc/39B1oPpDkdv65i/EPBh0FBH+ztD+gZ5j MfFYjFUQeFppFFmxSRwydhTt4YKpG18= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGtjTONvI0WAu5h+KRlYgYxy6lm/irdWU07/egO+w/T5+0qcSPq5Y4UcJUGVPkOOfxYVYhgQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:d207:: with SMTP id j7mr5812950wrh.150.1616629308359; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a6sm4282266wmm.0.2021.03.24.16.41.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:41:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::436; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x436.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266995 Archived-At: On 23.03.2021 08:12, Yuri Khan wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 05:45, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > >> I think something like this is only worthwhile if we were changing a >> whole bunch of bindings. Like not just C-o, but also C-n and C-s, to >> their "other software" counterparts. > More importantly, we should have a bulletproof way to move things off > C-x and C-c. The workaround we have in cua-mode is time-sensitive and, > depending on network lag, I regularly get false negatives (switching > buffers on ‘C-x →’ when I meant to cut and move right) and false > positives (copy and overwrite region on ‘C-c C-c >’ when I meant to > ‘python-indent-shift-right’). I think there are basically two directions: - Find two other C- prefix key combinations to move the main prefix keymaps to. C-d and C-e come to mind (basically all other keys that are situated closer to Ctrl or Caps on a qwerty keyboard are all taken up by popular bindings such as C-a "select all" or C-s "save file"). - Go all the way to VS Code/Atom/Notepad/etc approach and depopulate these prefix maps. And then use two modifiers at a time for the important commands/prefix maps which we still need to have bindings. For example, that would move 'C-x v' to 'C-M-g' and 'C-x C-i' to 'C-M-o', or similar (Emacs is a lot more keyboard-driven than the other editors in this example, so a lot of our commands don't have direct counterparts to look up bindings of, and we'll need to improvise). Or maybe we could combine these both in some productive fashion. Not sure if that's the response you were looking for. Personally, I'm content with only using a small part of foreign conventions in my Emacs bindings and not looking to switch away. But if we're going to devise a proper solution for newcomer-friendly bindings, I don't think we should stop at just the four that cua-mode changes.