From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:04:09 +0300 Message-ID: <71caf2d4-4f3f-f347-ea20-638aed25c76f@yandex.ru> References: <9c9af088-580f-9fb1-4d79-237a74ce605c@inventati.org> <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net> <78741fe6-2612-d7c9-2bc4-0b68ea7fa51a@yandex.ru> <76a4d0e2-117b-165d-d56e-5bc2f504b50c@yandex.ru> <87blapln0r.fsf@posteo.net> <37bd2e96-ce04-eb6d-24da-fdd7ea427e61@yandex.ru> <87im4wx2ct.fsf@posteo.net> <83ft0080hi.fsf@gnu.org> <16784f40-b959-9a84-65d4-93b71d1bebec@yandex.ru> <83blam7gzh.fsf@gnu.org> <9b76beed-13f8-18e4-1d14-4dc0a04d4ab6@yandex.ru> <83czv25gju.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2073"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 11 02:05:23 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lVNbP-0000Qp-28 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 02:05:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44150 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lVNbM-0002OD-8v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:05:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36110) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lVNaN-0001va-3J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:04:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]:38555) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lVNaL-0003p5-3g; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:04:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id r12so14363590ejr.5; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=I2j3mth6Dv7RjjYSFcTGn6SgRkc5F1quLNnHnmyzzbY=; b=fKjjg5+t5a/31byWVCQav6fTRxjdWW5kl6khwglt1STdQ5USVOzN58s/WhLhMcqtKl 5vFAxovG3EfRTt9UEibyOQgVZDRxuc55NWx9oGLChhopD4dlUQCE3GuPYao1w/Ke2YuE psnX4opoDJMZGnEuPKOgvemL/99MR6B0A58hmJzhaXZiself6DEP5jpQFJrZxqWNoGYx G8TvM4hiX16fBYW7pJsCFLnANEMWU7gCm6WH2wHDrKPViXNXFe2Qo5lEkzO+0RPy3gQ7 45r6njYJrlaRZhAfcGPV8MUKcPHeTgXYqot+eQSP3HYQztrhdouDFmn27cuXAmwM1pSf Gqag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=I2j3mth6Dv7RjjYSFcTGn6SgRkc5F1quLNnHnmyzzbY=; b=H628WbtQzzd0s0efnkJdAIzFbIJlBrxDng3yUXk4dn8Qx/9tOMwwXy3tlpSuc/EGWP lbCrwErg2vtQw/w42poNMUVYjCK4gvunWDibnKxhy8TDOSQKefCv72kx7tT8Qow7vdcp ytin1FKoTPcE5DXANdgs/Y6BSc5xY7QuiEDF6yslnQaKHNoNQKEwGQMSDNJOhCRyRV1h wrhADdtAqrSZejIrVI9UB6CWQ+8XriYL/trAjTWi65UtXQAEGqrcxUVSPklKpPZQ0Dwm FuyaPdmcGGMk2hc1f6nRoGwXbeobdYU+EiwZ4JytLWCLC2bYdLCapawvmQzp0ZZgL4cc dmsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ljvRAd2Q3BH2kEEzQyVv1SV//xl1TF7DO4PtSfe3tdQ7ldpsP FUxiZAcHpIr0S8b5DjmBILghoJQn+yI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/tpuwbvWcRgtXKrpOufOqZ2Gv7ZSK1bwLCKozoSd4o6pMaFxjgdysCZp7P0HKnneeGtdPvw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:dc5:: with SMTP id p5mr11164897eji.191.1618099452417; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 17:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm3285019eje.24.2021.04.10.17.04.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Apr 2021 17:04:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83czv25gju.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62c; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267848 Archived-At: On 10.04.2021 18:02, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I don't think we disagree too much, it's just there are cases where >> "completion" (as defined by you) is really inconvenient: you both don't >> know what you want to type, and the options are hard to type as well. >> >> But there are also cases (IME) when you don't necessarily know what to >> type, but you want to continue typing. That is the scenario of an >> average (or, perhaps, a beginner) Java developer typing in a IDE: when >> you don't remember the method name, you try to guess by typing a >> relevant word, see what names match, and often enough get it right. > > I agree that similar features are used for both purposes. But they > are still different purposes, and the discussion will become > inefficient (and for me lose its purpose) if we try to ignore that > difference or blur it. I was saying that there are different ways to decide which UI a situation calls for, and most of the popular UIs are hybrid anyway. So there's a lot of grey area. But there are situations that really call for "selection" like interface, and Emacs doesn't have any comparably good ones in the default config, that universal code could really rely on. >>> With that in mind, completion for symbols in invoking M-. and >>> completion for file names in invoking some file-related command have >>> the same traits, at least for me. >> >> I don't always know what file name I want to type either, and either >> guess by typing a part of the word and pressing TAB. Or type multiple >> relevant words at once, if the completion UI allows it (that's very >> helpful for choosing a project-relative file name in project-find-file). > > Never happens to me, and probably never will. If I don't know what to > type, I first find out (by "other means"). Let me expand on one of the previous examples. There is this command, project-find-file, which expects you to choose among a number (thousands?) of long-ish file names relative to the project root. Do you also always precisely know the file name you want to visit in advance? And so never really make use of the discoverability side-effect of the completion buffer? >> But Company is just as useful in "needs help in typing as few characters >> as possible" kind of scenarios. > > But its goal is still different, and doesn't make much sense in my > completion use cases. In fact, whenever I need to use programs that > only provide the "selection" type, I frequently am annoyed and many > times need to repeatedly type the same input until I get it right. I would hope that "Emacs with company-mode enabled" is not among such programs.