From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: `message' with quotes [was: bug#23425: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote] Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6f040ef3-1b41-4279-b5e5-0e84a299d440@default> References: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> <20170607203334.GD2430@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1496873206 10098 195.159.176.226 (7 Jun 2017 22:06:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:06:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , emacs-devel To: Alan Mackenzie , =?utf-8?B?Q2zDqW1lbnQgUGl0LUNsYXVkZWw=?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 08 00:06:40 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIj67-0002Id-RG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 00:06:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46291 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIj6D-00063x-0Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:06:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIj5d-00063r-MS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:06:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIj5a-0002ah-Ij for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:06:09 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:29799) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIj5a-0002Zf-8z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:06:06 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v57M5tFN024909 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:05:55 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v57M5svL028540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:05:54 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v57M5qZJ027589; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:05:53 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:215512 Archived-At: `text-quoting-style' controls this (at least in Emacs 25). So at least you can bind that to `grave' around any code that uses `message', to get back the sane, pre-Emacs 25 behavior. Given that, is there any reason for Alan's proposed new format escapes to to tell Emacs: "Hands off my quotes!"? Of course, you should not HAVE to do that. That should be the _default_ behavior: no crazy quote translation. `electric-quote-mode' is DISabled by default. We got one thing right! Why is it that the crazy quote translation for help and `message' happens by default, and you have to jump through a nearly secret hoop to get back the sane behavior? That makes no sense. It's an incompatible change that affects all older code as well. The default for `text-quoting-style' should be the misleadingly named `grave' behavior, i.e., preserve the long-established behavior of just leaving ` and ' alone. Instead, it is a value that gives you curly quotes when available. That behavior should not be the default (and it really should have a value such as `prefer-curly', not `nil'). Then, anyone wanting to be adventurous or what s?he considers "modern" could always bind it to `prefer-curly' or whatever, to get today's misguided default behavior, or to `curve' to always get translation-to-curly. This one we got backwards. It's not too late to change the default behavior of `text-quoting-style'. (But it is probably too late to change the meaning of `nil' for it.) Just make the initial value `grave', not `nil'. It's also a mistake to (in effect) hide this variable from ordinary users, instead of making it easy for them to express their preferences in this regard. This is what the Elisp manual says about it (it is not in the Emacs manual at all): This variable can be used by experts on platforms that have problems with curved quotes. As it is not intended for casual use, it is not a user option. That couldn't be more misguided. Experts? Only platforms that have "problems with curved quotes"? Not for casual use? It's a self-styled "style" variable, but it's not for you or me. Sheesh. Why? What happened to the interests of individual users?