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Sun, 27 Aug 2023 14:40:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <834jkkjrja.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309365 Archived-At: --2cafb7634508485da38e319287f7f159 Content-Type: text/plain What's hostile about my attitude exactly? Am I frustrated - yeah, for sure. If you feel my remark was hostile - my bad. But the whole process around the inclusion of clojure-ts-mode and before this adoc-mode (in limbo) and logview (also in limbo) got me quite upset and it's hard for me to be exactly excited about how things are happening with package submissions. You come with a simple request (let's include package X) and it turns into some time consuming conversation that's leading nowhere (as someone jumps to question your choice of repo, the purpose of the package, etc). I don't mind some degree of discussion on package inclusions, but I think almost always the discussions take some weird turns. We're all busy people and we have other work to do as well. I'm pretty sure the single reason why MELPA has so much more packages than the official repos is that it's much easier to submit something there (not in terms of technical work needed, obviously creating the patch for ELPA is trivial). I find it weird that the people who try to submit something to the official Emacs repos are not supported more. > "My way or the highway". At the risk of sounding hostile - that's the attitude of the Emacs team half the time, btw. (based on some 20 years of observations) And I'm obviously willing to play ball with Emacs's team's rules, as I'm trying to submit packages and I promote the submission of packages to the official repos (see https://emacsredux.com/blog/2021/08/11/submitting-a-package-to-nongnu-elpa/) > I guess "philosophical discussions" ("I've said a million times by now > that I don't want contributors to have to deal with copyright > agreements and with quirks/oddities in the Emacs development process") > are only allowed for you? What's this supposed to mean? I thought the conversation was off track and I had missed the message saying the patch was applied. I noted this in my next message. Anyways, I don't want to drag this any longer. If someone's offended by anything I said - you have my apologies. But your responses certainly didn't feel friendly either. :-) On Sun, Aug 27, 2023, at 8:58 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 20:38:18 +0300 > > From: "Bozhidar Batsov" > > Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, luangruo@yahoo.com, danny@dfreeman.email, > > "Stefan Kangas" , > > "Emacs Devel" , > > "Manuel Uberti" > > > > I believe this conversation has drifted a lot from the original topic (clojure-ts-mode). I have to say I'm a > > bit frustrated that every time someone wants to submit something to NonGNU ELPA there's some > > push to either submit to GNU ELPA or core instead. I've been maintaining almost all of the Clojure > > dev tooling for Emacs for over a decade, so I do believe that by now I know what I'm doing and how I > > want to do things. I've said a million times by now that I don't want contributors to have to deal with > > copyright agreements and with quirks/oddities in the Emacs development process. I believe that the > > maintainers who actually work on something should be allowed to decide how their projects get > > developed. > > With such a hostile attitude, why do you expect us to be friendly? > "My way or the highway". > > And I believe the Emacs maintainers also know what they are doing, > after so many years. Please at least allow for that, if you want us > to do the same. > > > All the other Clojure modes are on NonGNU ELPA already (clojure-mode, CIDER, inf-clojure, etc), so > > let's avoid philosophical discussions about the merits of X, Y and Z and just get this done, please. > > I guess "philosophical discussions" ("I've said a million times by now > that I don't want contributors to have to deal with copyright > agreements and with quirks/oddities in the Emacs development process") > are only allowed for you? > --2cafb7634508485da38e319287f7f159 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What's hostile = about my attitude exactly? Am I frustrated - yeah, for sure. If you feel= my remark was hostile - my bad. But the whole process around the inclus= ion of clojure-ts-mode and before this adoc-mode (in limbo) and logview = (also in limbo) got me quite upset and it's hard for me to be exactly ex= cited about how things are happening with package submissions. You come = with a simple request (let's include package X) and it turns into some t= ime consuming conversation that's leading nowhere (as someone jumps to q= uestion your choice of repo, the purpose of the package, etc). I don't m= ind some degree of discussion on package inclusions, but I think almost = always the discussions take some weird turns. We're all busy people and = we have other work to do as well.

I'm prett= y sure the single reason why MELPA has so much more packages than the of= ficial repos is that it's much easier to submit something there (not in = terms of technical work needed, obviously creating the patch for ELPA is= trivial). I find it weird that the people who try to submit something t= o the official Emacs repos are not supported more. 
=
> "My way or the highway".

At the risk of sounding hostile - that's the attitude of the Emacs tea= m half the time, btw. (based on some 20 years of observations) And I'm o= bviously willing to play ball with Emacs's team's rules, as I'm trying t= o submit packages and I promote the submission of packages to the offici= al repos (see https://emacsredux.com/blog/2021/08/11/sub= mitting-a-package-to-nongnu-elpa/)

I guess "philosophical discussions" ("I've said a= million times by now
that I don't want contributors to ha= ve to deal with copyright
agreements and with quirks/oddit= ies in the Emacs development process")
are only allowed fo= r you?

What's this supposed to= mean? I thought the conversation was off track and I had missed the mes= sage saying the patch was applied. I noted this in my next message.
<= /div>

Anyways, I don't want to drag this any longer. = If someone's offended by anything I said - you have my apologies. But yo= ur responses certainly didn't feel friendly either. :-)

On Sun, Aug 27, 2023, at 8:58 PM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote:
>= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 20:38:18 +0300
> From: "Bozhida= r Batsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev= >
>  "Stefan Kangas" <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>  "Emacs Devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
>  "Manuel Uberti" = <manuel.uberti@inventa= ti.org>
> 
> I believe thi= s conversation has drifted a lot from the original topic (clojure-ts-mod= e). I have to say I'm a
> bit frustrated that every tim= e someone wants to submit something to NonGNU ELPA there's some
> push to either submit to GNU ELPA or core instead. I've been = maintaining almost all of the Clojure
> dev tooling for= Emacs for over a decade, so I do believe that by now I know what I'm do= ing and how I
> want to do things. I've said a million = times by now that I don't want contributors to have to deal with
> copyright agreements and with quirks/oddities in the Emacs d= evelopment process. I believe that the
> maintainers wh= o actually work on something should be allowed to decide how their proje= cts get
> developed.

With = such a hostile attitude, why do you expect us to be friendly?
<= div>"My way or the highway".

And I believe = the Emacs maintainers also know what they are doing,
after= so many years.  Please at least allow for that, if you want us
=
to do the same.

> All the oth= er Clojure modes are on NonGNU ELPA already (clojure-mode, CIDER, inf-cl= ojure, etc), so
> let's avoid philosophical discussions= about the merits of X, Y and Z and just get this done, please. 

I guess "philosophical discussions" ("I've sa= id a million times by now
that I don't want contributors t= o have to deal with copyright
agreements and with quirks/o= ddities in the Emacs development process")
are only allowe= d for you?


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