From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:05:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419195991 6416 80.91.229.3 (21 Dec 2014 21:06:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:06:31 +0000 (UTC) To: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 21 22:06:24 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2nhn-0006AT-LG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:06:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38320 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2nhm-0003Sm-VD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:06:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48063) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2nhR-0003Rj-BB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:06:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2nhI-0007bg-Ja for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:06:01 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:48893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2nhI-0007bV-Dp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:05:52 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sBLL5jI3020739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:05:46 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBLL5ibI022398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:05:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBLL5i3C028130; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:05:44 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180443 Archived-At: > The younger crowd expects interactive web pages (e.g. jumping > to manual nodes with completion), because they are used to > interactive features on other pages (Gmail, facebook, etc.) Fine. And it is not only "the younger crowd" that is used to using interactive web pages. And if this is about providing access to arbitrary GNU manuals using HTML on the web then sure, why not add such features to our HTML manuals on line? But for the Emacs and Elisp manuals, in particular, I think that one of the goals should be to also steer users to *ask Emacs* itself. IOW, let users know that within Emacs they have access to the Emacs manuals, and that that is really the way to go (for the reasons already discussed, in particular, index features). Yes, this is perhaps a side point. But it is a concern I have. When a URL sends a user to a manual node on the web, I would like to see a feature that points back to the manual in Emacs, e.g., a reminder. Too many new Emacs users (old as well as young), I think, reflexively ask their questions about Emacs *first* on forums, mailing lists, Stack Exchange, etc. And often just because that's how they ask about other things. That's OK if it's a habit or they somehow find it easier, but they should at least be made aware that they *can* access the same information from within Emacs, and that they will get more help and learn more that way than via the manuals on line. The best way we can help them in this regard is to let them know that Emacs itself offers great help for learning about Emacs, and one of the best such aids are the Emacs and Elisp manuals - *within Emacs*. Having the information in these manuals at your fingertips while you use Emacs is an giant plus. Providing better Web use of the manuals is of course a good idea. But we should not neglect inviting users to consult the manuals from Emacs.