From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs for new users Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:41:18 -0800 Message-ID: <6E092AF13796494BADEBCE2C5C0361CE@us.oracle.com> References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <485b0c380911230905t6513e718w1dd804e18003228@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259080938 17610 80.91.229.12 (24 Nov 2009 16:42:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:42:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: per@starback.se, 'Stephen Eilert' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Lennart Borgman'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 24 17:42:11 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCySw-0001NE-Ar for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:42:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43388 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCySv-0004bj-Sk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:42:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCySq-0004bE-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:42:05 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCySl-0004ZV-9s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:42:04 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=36758 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCySl-0004ZO-0k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:41:59 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet11.oracle.com ([148.87.113.123]:28866 helo=rgminet11.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCySY-0003pd-79; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:41:46 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id nAOGfeRb011387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:41:42 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id nAOGfZtB004309; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:41:35 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt007.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 573363181259080878; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:41:18 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.185.59) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:41:16 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcptHs48c54BMArESr2GShHRUrEsegAALaGw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4B0C0CC0.0116:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117686 Archived-At: > For beginners I think it would be good if when minibuffer is active > clicking in other windows did not work. Or moving to another window in > any other way. Hi Lennart, Why? What possible reason could you have for such a suggestion? That would totally prevent using the mouse to interact with other buffers during minibuffer input. You wouldn't even be able to choose a completion from *Completions* using the mouse. FWIW, Icicles lets you use the mouse (if you want) in several ways to interact with other buffers. This would work against that. I imagine that other libraries might offer similar features. Even providing such a protective sandbox for beginners would be a big step backwards. There is no reason that beginners shouldn't be able to use the mouse during minibuffer interaction. The OP mentioned beginner confusion in several areas while learning. (That's what learning is about, BTW.) The relevant item here was the _query-replace_ dialog: using the mouse during query-replace. It was not about the interaction between the mouse and minibuffer input in general. *IF* we thought this was a big problem for query-replace (and I do not), then the solution would be to fix the _query-replace_ dialog appropriately: either block the mouse there (ignore it) or let you use it to interact elsewhere and then resume query-replace seamlessly. There are so many things to learn about query-replace, including the (normal) stop-and-resume possibilities, that this is certainly not a biggee. It's fine to look for and listen to newbie difficulties, and that can help us improve Emacs - definitely. But there is a tendency here sometimes to want to go off immediately, half-cocked, and redesign stuff willy nilly at the first report of someone not having understood something or expecting something different. Sheesh. For the most part, these are simply reports of how people learn Emacs. They are interesting, and we can learn from them, but they are not necessarily alarms or calls to action. -- Learning Emacs is like learning to ride a bike. Maybe you were _used to_ a tricycle and loved it, so maybe adding training wheels to your new big bike will temporarily help you a bit to adapt to it. But plenty of bike newbies never used training wheels - it can be done. And even if you do use them, sooner or later you need to get your balance and find out that riding a bike is _not_ the same as riding a trike. Or not. Imagine seeing veteran bike riders still using training wheels, because they got so used to it and came to think of four wheels as naturally superior to two. (That's the way I look at things like CUA mode, BTW... Oops; no flames please.) When you're learning to ride a bike, yes, it does seem like a big deal ("I'll never get this"). But hey, it can be done; it's not that big a deal; and riding without training wheels is what bike riding is really about. As long as you are on 4 wheels, you are not bike-riding - you might think you are, but you're not. No, I'm not saying that "real Emac users" do this or that. But if we want to help newbies, we should concentrate on helping them learn Emacs, not only on giving them what they expect or are already used to.