From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:34:38 +0300 Message-ID: <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33169"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, john@yates-sheets.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 03 12:42:15 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mM6eE-0008U2-Nb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 12:42:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34592 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM6eD-0007DY-CD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:42:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33478) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM6Wz-0004BN-Hj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:34:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]:53941) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM6Wx-000787-9o; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:34:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id i3so3188147wmq.3; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 03:34:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aibUxY6d0NOwwmMZuPT07JwwFslWa41l05wXKcXrpgU=; b=Wn5workUmmeLimbjYCssPpLeX2Md35iKczGizD/V22yaZpkD0IW/21kls/G+9aqnzk pPQn+D0lxjNGFrudVOvVpC9BaUhTNSE1CFh4luMImZ+Rmi8O/KRLSwr3tFDcZwI7YiU5 gSJlpLIKf7+vVCjUPsrvyuVbAi8vCa8kWJ0puok1/baF/pUpEfyFpwFgsuxWUblf8uO/ PtmWX4oYduk+NShquUcPLGXEBOn/qjKh/SoNEwKK0JvF0iVXZUH/q9BcQzhCWggELWmR NJTAtVtRKuoIX1wpuHovaNKwS8BdkvqQwtnLCzprxMVBo1LUa7n9eIY6wvh2xj1Uiu6T 44kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aibUxY6d0NOwwmMZuPT07JwwFslWa41l05wXKcXrpgU=; b=bSzaie9M5UIrhIaJBao5vF5mckBRII8TwFJpiOk8wVqOCloKMonTedVylGknhB0Abw HOVq+hDs5rwq25mvc5/Xiw9lcbkCsPZkq2q61t1fJ4oH2YwCAqta5cLfbbRNzwsQyKib Mzz4FGAXNQtCz6Qrc5OQMe72KZLuC/Wd6ZUelLOLBjy+4/pIwXEc6k7LtOM9W6LG4z7i eUgs5IELHBQLS39ZQtwBGuBxP0/1ewa2bmINhFtjeaA17Q/3Qb6gN04VPAHc1ZWLb+nb 6T1wsj1ZnLJRCmtwgj88EUdPV8aa8lP/6Ogjcl4CgulcIGkUJpPJRzDeMyhU18KCiQPu 2U3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HUSaduwrObDO+jVbwhrGx0dRqFc9rWS4mIGAerrnKVjmiEscg NuqDnWYEoWRpdZ21F6kfA7ZaC76N1BE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHsMiZZqrHQACQWMEwqFrwIP8yup+uwqrD2E4xBRryxQ6kCPwcHBUjcvCJa1c9v4EdjnB8nw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c451:: with SMTP id l17mr7630321wmi.74.1630665281134; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 03:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z2sm3848413wma.45.2021.09.03.03.34.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 03:34:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32a; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -36 X-Spam_score: -3.7 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.225, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273761 Archived-At: On 03.09.2021 09:28, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > That's only true for changes of the default behavior, and key bindings > are examples of such a change, at least the way they are proposed. > There was talk about introducing a minor mode which would then be free > to make controversial changes, including key bindings, but no one > stepped forward to write such a mode. Which I think is a pity, given > how easy it should be to do that, and how many problems and > frustrations it could potentially solve. Again you try to change any discussion of a change into an "addition". Something that wouldn't change anything in the default behavior. > Once again: significant changes in behavior should generally be > introduced as opt-in features, then the friction will be much lower > and in the long run we could perhaps introduce changes at a faster > pace. Thus, people who insist on making changes in the default > behavior are shooting themselves (and Emacs, if their opinions are > right) in the foot, IME. A lot of the time I'm talking about features that are already available. There's nothing to "introduce". But simply by having a wrong default we make Emacs harder to adopt with little benefit. >> Or take indent-tabs-mode, an old pet peeve of mine: >> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=20322 I can talk about >> contemporary practice, whole-industry polls, threads with personal >> opinions anywhere, threads with people expressing confusion about the >> current default behavior... but a few people say a change will be >> inconvenient -- and it moves nowhere. > > indent-tabs-mode is an existing option, so your insistence on turning > it on by default in the face of resistance is ... peculiar. We did > turn it on in some of our sources. Turning it off by default. What's so peculiar about changing the behavior that flies in the face of existing practice in all programming languages out there? And which causes confusion in new users? The way it is implemented made sense decades ago, but these days even users who want tabs for indentation are surprised by Emacs behavior in this area (because most of those users want 1 tab to mean 1 indentation level).