Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Zoltan Kiraly]

Dear Emacs Development Team,
I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection 
named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author 
behind the Modus themes.

Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive 
response they received from the community, I'm confident that 
incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of 
benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for individuals 
who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while ensuring good 
readability.

What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation, 
covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is 
constantly updated and improved.

I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection 
for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this collection, 
we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing options while 
upholding the high standards of Emacs.

https://github.com/protesilaos/ef-themes


Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,
Zoltan Kiraly

Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Philip Kaludercic]

Zoltan Kiraly <zolikydev@gmail.com> writes:

> Dear Emacs Development Team,
> I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection
> named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author
> behind the Modus themes.
>
> Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive
> response they received from the community, I'm confident that
> incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of
> benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for
> individuals who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while
> ensuring good readability.

My main concern is that there are a lot of themes, which might be
overwhelming if they are all provided by default.  The other question is
what the concrete use is of having them bundled in by default.  I am not
sure what the argumentation was when adding the Modus Themes to the
core, but I have to admit that I was not really a fan of adding the new
Modus Themes (-tinted, -tritanopia, -deuteranopia) to the core as well,
because of the above mentioned point of having too much provided by
default, which can cause choice paralysis.

Perhaps a compromise could be to limit the number of themes that are
added to three or four of the most popular ones.

> What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation,
> covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is
> constantly updated and improved.

IIRC EF Themes had fewer customisation options than Modus Themes, right?
Is this something that would interest the "average" user who, I would
guess usually is not that invested as to read the manual of a theme?

> I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection
> for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this
> collection, we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing
> options while upholding the high standards of Emacs.

On a tangent, what I was planning to work on for Emacs 30 was to add
more "semantic" faces (along the lines of highlight, match, success,
...).  I had previously discussed the topic with Protesilaos (added in
the CC's), and I think his work on various themes is useful in
recognising common patterns in faces being defined in third-party faces
that make creating themes so cumbersome (because of all the explicit
support that has to be added for all the various known packages).  I
reckon that ideally, a theme shouldn't have to concern itself with
specific packages.

> https://github.com/protesilaos/ef-themes
>
>
> Thank you for your time and consideration.
>
> Best regards,
> Zoltan Kiraly

Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

Good day Zoltan and Philip,

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
> Date: Tue,  1 Aug 2023 08:22:43 +0000
>
> Zoltan Kiraly <zolikydev@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Dear Emacs Development Team,
>> I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection
>> named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author
>> behind the Modus themes.
>>
>> Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive
>> response they received from the community, I'm confident that
>> incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of
>> benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for
>> individuals who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while
>> ensuring good readability.
>
> My main concern is that there are a lot of themes, which might be
> overwhelming if they are all provided by default.

I understand this point.  There are lots of Ef themes as well.

> The other question is what the concrete use is of having them bundled
> in by default.

I don't have a strong opinion about this.  I guess the advantage is that
it is easier for new users to discover more themes.  The same argument
can be made for all the non-essential---but still useful---parts that
are built into Emacs.

> I am not sure what the argumentation was when adding the Modus Themes
> to the core, but I have to admit that I was not really a fan of adding
> the new Modus Themes (-tinted, -tritanopia, -deuteranopia) to the core
> as well, because of the above mentioned point of having too much
> provided by default, which can cause choice paralysis.

I asked before adding the new Modus variants.  From my side, I would
have added the new variants to the collection regardless.  It was just a
matter of whether core Emacs would have the same version as my Git
repository which, I believe, is the norm.

Generally though, the feeling of overwhelming options is not going away
by reducing the number of themes (which is the right number, anyway?).
Assuming this is the goal, concerted effort is needed across many parts
of Emacs.  For example, icomplete.el defines four minor modes and has to
explain to new users what Fido is all about.  I personally do not mind
this state of affairs.

> Perhaps a compromise could be to limit the number of themes that are
> added to three or four of the most popular ones.

Maybe this works for other themes.  Though when it comes to deuteranopia
or tritanopia popularity will not be a reliable criterion.

At any rate, we can take a look at the latest Emacs survey where there
are many entries for the Ef themes that were not consolidated in a
single bar: <https://emacssurvey.org/results/3425413930>.  At the time
of the survey, the Ef themes were only a few months old.

[ I don't read too much into the survey data, though it is a point about
  "popularity". ]

>> What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation,
>> covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is
>> constantly updated and improved.
>
> IIRC EF Themes had fewer customisation options than Modus Themes, right?
> Is this something that would interest the "average" user who, I would
> guess usually is not that invested as to read the manual of a theme?

Yes, the Ef themes have fewer options than the Modus themes.  They still
are customisable and the manual explains all the details.  On the
flip-side, the Ef themes may be less confusing to the kind of user you
allude to here, because they look okay out-of-the-box, plus they cover a
wide range of preferences.

>> I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection
>> for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this
>> collection, we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing
>> options while upholding the high standards of Emacs.
>
> On a tangent, what I was planning to work on for Emacs 30 was to add
> more "semantic" faces (along the lines of highlight, match, success,
> ...).  I had previously discussed the topic with Protesilaos (added in
> the CC's), and I think his work on various themes is useful in
> recognising common patterns in faces being defined in third-party faces
> that make creating themes so cumbersome (because of all the explicit
> support that has to be added for all the various known packages).  I
> reckon that ideally, a theme shouldn't have to concern itself with
> specific packages.

I agree and am happy to contribute towards that end.  If you already
have something, I am ready to contribute.  Otherwise, we can discuss it
whenever you want.

All the best,
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Eric Gillespie]

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Personally, I wouldn't mind if the ef-themes were added, I'm just not sure
about the large-to-me number of options available. I guess a lot of people
have that problem.

I did also notice that the ef-themes don't have any descriptions when using
(M-x customize-themes). They simply come up like the below:

==== example buffer ====
...
[ ] ef-summer -- (no description)
...

If the individual themes are loaded with M-x ef-themes-select, then their
description does turn up in the customize-themes listing for each theme
loaded (and presumably then cached), shown below:

==== example buffer ====
...
[x] ef-summer -- Legible light theme with magenta, purple, gold, cyan
colors.
...

I don't know whether I failed to follow some installation instructions when
I installed them.

Just my NZ$0.02

Regards, brickviking

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Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

Hello Eric,

> From: Eric Gillespie <brickviking@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed,  2 Aug 2023 17:29:15 +1200

> [... 5 lines elided]

> I did also notice that the ef-themes don't have any descriptions when using
> (M-x customize-themes). They simply come up like the below:
>
> ==== example buffer ====
> ...
> [ ] ef-summer -- (no description)
> ...
>
> If the individual themes are loaded with M-x ef-themes-select, then their
> description does turn up in the customize-themes listing for each theme
> loaded (and presumably then cached), shown below:

> [... 9 lines elided]

This used to work in the past.  Currently, 'custom-theme-p' returns nil.
Maybe something changed in cus-theme.el...  I am not familiar with how
it works and don't have an answer right now.

All the best,
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Re: Proposal to include the Ef themes collection into Emacs core

[Philip Kaludercic]

Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:

> Good day Zoltan and Philip,
>
>> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>> Date: Tue,  1 Aug 2023 08:22:43 +0000
>>
>> Zoltan Kiraly <zolikydev@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Dear Emacs Development Team,
>>> I'm writing to bring your attention to an exceptional theme collection
>>> named "Ef Themes," created by Protesilaos Stavrou, the same author
>>> behind the Modus themes.
>>>
>>> Considering how well-received the Modus themes were and the positive
>>> response they received from the community, I'm confident that
>>> incorporating the "Ef Themes" collection into Emacs core would be of
>>> benefit to users. These themes offer an excellent choice for
>>> individuals who desire a more colorful Emacs environment while
>>> ensuring good readability.
>>
>> My main concern is that there are a lot of themes, which might be
>> overwhelming if they are all provided by default.
>
> I understand this point.  There are lots of Ef themes as well.
>
>> The other question is what the concrete use is of having them bundled
>> in by default.
>
> I don't have a strong opinion about this.  I guess the advantage is that
> it is easier for new users to discover more themes.  The same argument
> can be made for all the non-essential---but still useful---parts that
> are built into Emacs.

What I had in mind specifically was to not overpopulate the M-x
customize-themes buffer, perhaps only because I can still recall that
this was one of the first things that I discovered when using Emacs.

When it comes to the discover-ability of themes, one could also imagine
adding a command like `package-list-themes' that would pop up a buffer
with packages that are themes.

>> I am not sure what the argumentation was when adding the Modus Themes
>> to the core, but I have to admit that I was not really a fan of adding
>> the new Modus Themes (-tinted, -tritanopia, -deuteranopia) to the core
>> as well, because of the above mentioned point of having too much
>> provided by default, which can cause choice paralysis.
>
> I asked before adding the new Modus variants.  From my side, I would
> have added the new variants to the collection regardless.  It was just a
> matter of whether core Emacs would have the same version as my Git
> repository which, I believe, is the norm.
>
> Generally though, the feeling of overwhelming options is not going away
> by reducing the number of themes (which is the right number, anyway?).
> Assuming this is the goal, concerted effort is needed across many parts
> of Emacs.  For example, icomplete.el defines four minor modes and has to
> explain to new users what Fido is all about.  I personally do not mind
> this state of affairs.

Again, I don't think it is necessarily the potential number of different
implementations or variations a component in Emacs provides.

>> Perhaps a compromise could be to limit the number of themes that are
>> added to three or four of the most popular ones.
>
> Maybe this works for other themes.  Though when it comes to deuteranopia
> or tritanopia popularity will not be a reliable criterion.

Are you refering to ef-themes or modus-themes here?  

> At any rate, we can take a look at the latest Emacs survey where there
> are many entries for the Ef themes that were not consolidated in a
> single bar: <https://emacssurvey.org/results/3425413930>.  At the time
> of the survey, the Ef themes were only a few months old.
>
> [ I don't read too much into the survey data, though it is a point about
>   "popularity". ]
>
>>> What makes the EF themes stand out is the awesome documentation,
>>> covering everything a user needs to know, and the fact that it is
>>> constantly updated and improved.
>>
>> IIRC EF Themes had fewer customisation options than Modus Themes, right?
>> Is this something that would interest the "average" user who, I would
>> guess usually is not that invested as to read the manual of a theme?
>
> Yes, the Ef themes have fewer options than the Modus themes.  They still
> are customisable and the manual explains all the details.  On the
> flip-side, the Ef themes may be less confusing to the kind of user you
> allude to here, because they look okay out-of-the-box, plus they cover a
> wide range of preferences.
>
>>> I kindly request you to consider evaluating the "Ef Themes" collection
>>> for potential integration into Emacs core. By embracing this
>>> collection, we can offer users a wider array of visually appealing
>>> options while upholding the high standards of Emacs.
>>
>> On a tangent, what I was planning to work on for Emacs 30 was to add
>> more "semantic" faces (along the lines of highlight, match, success,
>> ...).  I had previously discussed the topic with Protesilaos (added in
>> the CC's), and I think his work on various themes is useful in
>> recognising common patterns in faces being defined in third-party faces
>> that make creating themes so cumbersome (because of all the explicit
>> support that has to be added for all the various known packages).  I
>> reckon that ideally, a theme shouldn't have to concern itself with
>> specific packages.
>
> I agree and am happy to contribute towards that end.  If you already
> have something, I am ready to contribute.  Otherwise, we can discuss it
> whenever you want.

I hope to be able to come back to you on this soon, as soon as I have a
prototype.

> All the best,
> Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")