From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Idea for determining what users use Date: 31 May 2003 01:47:49 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <5xk7c8m1y2.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1054331609 18463 80.91.224.249 (30 May 2003 21:53:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:53:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri May 30 23:53:23 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Lrme-0004iO-00 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:51:32 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19Ls1y-00037Q-00 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:07:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Lrms-0002yq-KP for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:51:46 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LrmD-0002Nj-Ns for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:51:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LrlO-0001d7-Cd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:50:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.filanet.dk ([195.215.206.179]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Lrkl-00010L-Lr; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:49:35 -0400 Original-Received: from kfs2.cua.dk.cua.dk (unknown [10.1.82.3]) by mail.filanet.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A12F37C012; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:49:33 +0200 (CEST) Original-To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: Original-Lines: 90 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:14506 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:14506 The more I think about this proposal, the more I dislike it. So if I have a vote on this, it's a definite NO. For the un-informed public (read journalists, m$-evangelists, etc), putting such a feature into emacs could be used to bad-mouth the GNU project for installing "SPY-ware" on the users' systems. Furthermore, I think the benefits of the proposed features are very limited, and that our efforts are better spent on new features. As Stefan has pointed out, there's already a warning if people are using a package in the obsolete directory -- I think that's the right approach: Tell the user that the feature is considered obsolete, so if he disagrees, he should send us a bug-report. There are some technical problems with the "simple approach" too: How are we going to present the question to someone who upgrades from an older version of emacs who loads one of the obsolete features? I guess he will presented with the question after loading of his emacs is complete. That adds further complexity if he has loaded multiple obsolete packages. And we don't really get realiable measurements this way either: Consider a user who finds a feature that we have marked obsolete and decides to try it out ... SURPRISE, he's asked whether he wants to send mail to the emacs team about actively using this feature ... Well, he hasn't had a chance to try it yet, so he may do one of four things: 1) Answer yes (causing the mail to be sent), and actually like the feature, so he continues to use it. 2) Answer yes (causing the mail to be sent), but then finds the feature is useless, so he doesn't actually use it. 3) Answer no -- because he's doesn't want us to spy on him. And maybe be aggrevated at the same time... 4) Answer no -- because he doesn't know whether he's going to use it yet, but he intends to tell us the next time he loads the feature if he likes it. But I assume that we are not going to ask him again (because we wrote something in his .emacs). That means that only in one of four cases do we get a useful answer, and probably get a number of false answers too .... And then there's the problem of not being able to send mail from emacs in some setups. Finally, what if only one or two users report using a specific feature -- is that enough "audience" to keep an obsolete feature? Richard Stallman writes: > We have no good way to determine if anyone still uses a feature. > Maybe we can create one. > > Imagine a function called note-feature-used. > You call it like this: (note-feature-used 'foo "Foo"). > The first time you call it, it sends mail to > emacs-features-used@gnu.org with subject Foo, > asking you for permission to send it, > and it records (setq foo t) in your .emacs file. > If you call it again, it does nothing. > > We could put these calls into various files and functions > in order to find out (after the next release) whether anyone uses them. > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-devel mailing list > Emacs-devel@gnu.org > http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel > > -- Kim F. Storm http://www.cua.dk