From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:48:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5c96f926-6027-4f1d-b46b-bcc0e1e5bc78@default> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87mw72lyzs.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <20141205190925.GA5067@thyrsus.com> <871tod241v.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <20141205212111.GB7784@thyrsus.com> <87d27xn3jh.fsf@earlgrey.lan> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417819734 24872 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 22:48:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:48:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Christopher Allan Webber Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 23:48:47 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xx1g5-0001Tk-Oj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 23:48:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52775 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xx1g5-0004gF-Dq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:48:45 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40458) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xx1ft-0004Qg-Nj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:48:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xx1fk-0004aq-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:48:33 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:42841) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xx1fj-0004aV-WF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:48:24 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sB5MmLOj009481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:48:22 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sB5MmKC1019113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:48:21 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sB5MmJUr017576; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 22:48:20 GMT In-Reply-To: <87d27xn3jh.fsf@earlgrey.lan> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179058 Archived-At: > I don't think new users should have to learn info, They do NOT "have to" learn it. > but if you know it, there's nothing else like > it as in terms of speed to navigate and keybindings. Consider the user, new or not (but in particular, a newbie) who has not learned or is not in the habit of *asking Emacs* itself, and finds it "easier" to directly ask Stack Exchange or help-gnu-emacs. Level 1 help: Someone provides an answer. Level 2 help: Someone provides an answer AND links to the pertinent Emacs or Elisp manual section on the web, so the user can (a) get a well thought out explanation and (b) learn more, starting from there. Level 3 help: Level 2 help PLUS telling the user *how to ask Emacs* - how to consult the manual from Emacs and how to use `i' in it to find that information (and more) using the index. No one *has to* learn Info to consult the manuals. We do users a favor by teaching them that they can *ask Emacs* (surprise!), and how to do that. That door is not locked, and it is really very simple to turn the doorknob. You just need to know how to recognize the door. There is nothing difficult about finding information from the manuals on the web. That does not make web access or HTML a substitute for Info. This should be a no-brainer.