From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 00:57:56 +0300 Message-ID: <5bdf09e1-bdb7-9295-6e06-c97336deee6f@yandex.ru> References: <83a730ah5y.fsf@gnu.org> <5fce7517-9475-81d2-25be-41d5c5050de7@yandex.ru> <838sikadum.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="80588"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 Cc: ndame@protonmail.com, pcr910303@icloud.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 23:59:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jS6Lk-000KpQ-0R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:59:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53856 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jS6Lj-0004gs-1H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:59:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50976) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jS6Kh-0003cv-Lx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:58:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jS6Kg-0006kK-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:58:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::429]:35297) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jS6Kg-0006cz-9u; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:58:02 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id x18so12954937wrq.2; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xNqIZEnIw+9pCy5a1UkJGsWLrnjC6nA2Pnv8WG0c1CQ=; b=b0SyoEWPR6KT64r2Jm1VHbhhlNQkU+yPREvewt83YGlNDgi/wozLbSvlK1QYhiMTQw wXjqPhi8x8jWzT5efIhXs8F22G06Z+d84zTPpYUW399DnXbl9YuW8Pklvzw3VrcpvP4r ADGexgkh2hyDpCMtTiX/zJAvCuL/w+odLmlMhKG72L9UPmCkSCDLF5FAEvhPaTiEMb7z T/Z+smu1G/00f8kACt3Z4IJDiwd2uA/skQ0jhJ0PNT6f5Ut/676BeqNctr1pbhy0Brp9 tGQ66S4ibP3Lrcb5+PMSUJ3aVnjn/pFGcQ/YMr4B8tPnPgN+XGYZlYQttSFWqAq/JxcS 162w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xNqIZEnIw+9pCy5a1UkJGsWLrnjC6nA2Pnv8WG0c1CQ=; b=jgwSASbzalihPBip+ErUD7wE8f7FFYAGZiLdDXtVxXv6kL/wHA1BItuUuil950dk5x +C/n5XJ4wGAJ+vuJRdp6Hs4XoXaLvS3PSYiH/ujg/mM3V1Ug321rLXGC57sdXaNR5xGK W45bwJdPyWq6z/A7H/Lq3Q6OXEYE234N/b0iI8F8gUDNNoq7LZv1+PAyMdbudFpbbUn+ 32J1SeOYvkhU1R2L92NVUfbfrTvWfto9PwobkUyxp2XWXqvwdIc+MvJfPdiKAHeojPC/ uKUEHuP909iKZIM1W5+eOyfz0/aq77nBjPU+PQ2AzBHVIEM94kzTsHJ2T0FUy2IHO3J5 JpXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYdnJnClDBU2GMmRbdzql+ixbI+4S9UAchM53Vg5Tk7CGnokFd4 7wx/0fJxoyzU0pWuBBk6lUg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLCQENwkVtXiLegIsgjFIQtUEtiI5ksocb7U7etaeNNQHSaPIrhyh7fKnYt/AFTpI2wx4N75A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f785:: with SMTP id q5mr7640648wrp.313.1587765479333; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w83sm4463146wmb.37.2020.04.24.14.57.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:57:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <838sikadum.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x429.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::429 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247728 Archived-At: On 24.04.2020 22:22, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> All of these can be introduced much quicker than a 12-page document. > > Maybe it can, maybe it can't. I encourage you (or someone else) to > show such a variant of the introductory text, then we'd have something > to talk about, including comparing it with what we have now. Guess it's going on my list. But if anyone starts working on the new version, I have a few suggestions, please hit me up. >> And at least for Magit and Helm, it's perfectly possible to describe >> their selling points without first introducing what "buffers" and "mode >> line" are. Maybe even windows. > > Once again, "selling" is a different document. Describing how to use > these feature without the basics could work for those who already know > the basics, but not for those who don't. Maybe you assume that people > who read the tutorial already know the basics. "Selling" happens first. Then the new user has more motivation to actually learn stuff in detail.