From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phil Sainty Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, =?UTF-8?Q?etc=29=3F=20=28was=20Re=3A=20Shorthands=20have=20landed=20on=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?master=29?= Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 01:24:22 +1300 Message-ID: <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16270"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Orcon Webmail Cc: acm@muc.de, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 01 14:27:11 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHd8-00040R-UJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 14:27:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46786 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHd7-0003N6-K4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:27:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHac-0001JH-Ix for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:24:34 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:43705) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHaa-0000UY-VF; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:24:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=61683 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHaR-00040C-7t; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 01:24:23 +1300 Original-Received: from ip-203-94-48-127.kinect.net.nz ([203.94.48.127]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 01:24:22 +1300 In-Reply-To: <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz X-GeoIP: -- Received-SPF: pass client-ip=60.234.4.43; envelope-from=psainty@orcon.net.nz; helo=smtp-2.orcon.net.nz X-Spam_score_int: -11 X-Spam_score: -1.2 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_05=-0.5, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275977 Archived-At: On 2021-10-01 19:09, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > And I'm saying that this will be a bad solution, since many features > that identify symbols by name will not work with those "display-only" > names that the user sees. So using something like that is a net loss > for users: it "fixes" a minor readability issue, but introduces major > usability issues. Major usability issues caused by things not being what they appear to be? Not to put too finer point on it, but that is precisely what this thread has been about from the beginning. You can't do any of these things without causing problems. The notion of not using real symbol names is a problem by definition. I'm merely suggesting that the problems created by the 'nameless' style of "the code is not what it appears to be" are not nearly as bad as the problems caused by the 'shorthands' style of "the code is not what it appears to be". The particular issue of not being able to identify things using the names that you see is (amongst the other issues which have been discussed) precisely what people will face when looking at any code where shorthands are in effect (at minimum code using s.el). At least with the 'nameless' approach every user who sees the short names has opted in and is aware in advance that things are not how they appear. > The existence of shorthands in Emacs core is not a sign to anyone > that the feature can be abused. We in the Emacs project development > cannot be held responsible for irresponsible acts of others, it is > highly unfair for you and others to hold us to such a standard! I absolutely agree that you are not responsible for irresponsible acts of others, but I don't think it was at all unreasonable to raise these concerns. I do believe that I've failed to convince you on the subject of shorthands, however, so I shall hope that documentation dissuading people from misusing the feature will prove sufficient for avoiding very many such cases. -Phil