From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 02:36:29 +0000 Message-ID: <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> References: <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> <877ckqa6m5.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15571"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Po Lu , Eli Zaretskii , =?utf-8?Q?Vincent_Bela=C3=AFche?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 05 07:39:16 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rLdrQ-0003kY-7Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2024 07:39:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLdqa-0006tN-5T; Fri, 05 Jan 2024 01:38:24 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLa4l-0000nq-HP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 21:36:48 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-4317.proton.ch ([185.70.43.17]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLa4i-0001YR-FK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 21:36:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=traductaire-libre.org; s=protonmail; t=1704422200; x=1704681400; bh=Y40fFgX7lfwE/oon0Y4LEqwv0L0XPDEQrusPBIzsdkc=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=InGHlFjoRfRO7HnATZ98GC3f0Miw0IVcMhS2GhC1r2dKswHT4u6zpnI/flMfuQ1xM YWKUbsTrfwH5uePzs0zKXO/BvughnNTIXXd/1hm+vM5jTL5QHZWbR3j6AhwgtkGIPu eTiU2PvNGdawNW7tcqH6nPcoZrbyv+Ng4Vt1mTa2PP+cvBjd4XcwXi6jte1bxdKHmW uw3+EgNUJrXaJMDRfu0tOp66kxmW7BLu05u+rLdmmu9oMZ5gToMhweWEhpMd2z/Olt QNqGEGCrAeLofLJQ5F0J2PY3P+/WPCetaW4hTx1nhmUJ4b+PbG5GzEjOstRC97NnOG dgQ3Yq/mhl25A== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 92162971:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.17; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org; helo=mail-4317.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 01:38:21 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314558 Archived-At: > On Jan 5, 2024, at 9:34, Stefan Kangas wrote: >=20 >>> We could perhaps consider having several "tiers" of manuals: one >>> "nursery" for those are not yet meaningfully ready for distribution, on= e >>> "attic" for those that are no longer reasonably maintained, and one for >>> those that we actually do consider up to scratch. The decision for wha= t >>> goes where could be based on a dialogue between the maintainers and the >>> translators of various manuals. >>=20 >> This scheme is far too complicated for the number of translations or >> translators on the horizon. We have little translations and translators on the horizons not because=20 they do not potentially exist, but because Emacs was always seen as a=20 closed English-only system. Emacs is *the* free software movement flagship. There is no equivalent=20 in the history of the movement. Still, it is the one that has=20 historically shown the least interest in, or practical commitment to,=20 translation and localization. The fact that most consequent free software projects have full-fledge=20 translation (and translation quality) support says a lot about the sad=20 state of Emacs in that regard. And translation/localization projects=20 already existed pre-utf-8, so it=E2=80=99s not so much the lack of interest= on=20 the Emacs side than the passive dismissal of anything that smells like=20 translation related (I=E2=80=99ve read a number of very silly things here, = and=20 not so long ago, about the fact that people who needed to work in Emacs=20 should be able to read English, etc.) I=E2=80=99m really glad that Vincent=E2=80=99s commit has actually started = to stir the=20 pot, because the mere fact that we did not have a location within the=20 Emacs sources to put our translations was probably one of the major=20 show stoppers for all translation endeavours. Now that we have that, we can, and should, consider how to deal with=20 the new situation. Right after Vincent=E2=80=99s first commit, I did a roug= h=20 check and found dozens of trivial mistakes. I mentioned them here and=20 Vincent was quick to fix them (I did not check the fixes). So we need some sort of QA process. The discussion is, does the QA take=20 place here, on devel, or in other places where translation =E2=80=9Cteams= =E2=80=9D do=20 all the things they need to do before a final commit. The Translation Project has a solution. Free software maintainers send=20 (po) files to the TP, the files are handled by the various teams and=20 sent back to the TP (after appropriate QA and validation) to be=20 included in the final builds. Major gnu/linux distributions too have=20 solutions. Each distribution has a translation team with all the=20 committed languages represented, they have deadlines, QA checks,=20 proofreading, etc. And things work and distributions (including their=20 manuals) are published as multilingual systems. Emacs and TexInfo being what they are, it is fair to suggest that we=20 should have a system that only relies on the two for translation, hence=20 the discussion about IDing texi chunks and so forth, instead of relying=20 on yet another dependency (po4a) and a format that=E2=80=99s not easy on th= e=20 eyes (po). But the thing is that all existing free software multilingual=20 communities work with PO already, so offering a temporary bridge to PO=20 would ensure that we get the best expertise from already existing teams=20 and that would give us the time to elaborate on what part we want to=20 have Emacs and TexInfo play in the process. --=20 Jean-Christophe Helary @jchelary@emacs. ch https://traductaire-libre.org https://mac4translators.blogspot.com https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/