From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Before l10n, better practices for (message) ? 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[133.232.153.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s23sm9243937pfg.81.2017.05.27.17.44.36 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 27 May 2017 17:44:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:215270 Archived-At: > On May 28, 2017, at 8:27, G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp = wrote: G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F, Thank you for your mail. You raise very important questions, that are = not really technical in nature (ie they are not solvable with technology = only). But we need to solve legitimate technical issues before worrying. What you describe is common to all l10n endeavor and I think very big = projects (Debian for ex) have already shown that we can find solutions. = As a translator who's participated to FOSS translations for the last 20 = years (besides for paying my bills with non-FOSS/non-fun translations = for about the same time), I am positive that a l10n effort will only = bring good things to Emacs in general, even if it puts a slight burden = on the development community. But if we find the right solutions, it = won't be more effort than other projects have to handle. > - Some packages will have translations, some won't, and thus some > messages will be in my language, and some English, which will be > confusing (and annoying). >=20 > - The manuals will have to be translated too. Once the infrastructure exists, I believe Emacs has such a name = recognition that creating (or getting support from already existing) = l10n groups will be relatively easy, especially since existing groups = don't work on Emacs simply because Emacs does not provide the proper = mechanism for l10n. > - It will undermine online discussion, as people will start posting > (error) messages in their locales, and others will have to decode > them. Also, using online documentation will become harder as now one > will need to translate. Just as with all the big l10n projects, we will have native communities = that will handle the issues in native language. This works already. = There are already Emacs experts in all languages so there is little to = worry about. I think when Emacs gets i18n/l10n there will be a huge = amount of enthusiasm in the *whole* FOSS world. > - Emacs probably has way more strings to be translated than most > applications out there, which will hinder the translations and make = it > more error prone. Also, the community is not large enough that the > messages will always be up-to-date and correct. Here again, the existing native language groups have the infrastructure = to cope with that. I am not worried. I have a po4a based estimate for the existing documentation: the = Emacs/Elisp/Introduction manuals are about 900,000 words (180 man/day). = The various modes that are included in the distribution are about = 700,000 words (140 man/day). I estimate that the UI strings are at most = 15% of the total written mode manuals (no way to get the strings from = the code right now), counting all the redundancy between the manuals and = the package inline documentation, so the strings themselves would be at = about 100,000 (20 man/day). With 10 translation volunteers, that represents 34 days of work. With = only 1 day per week, that's about 10 months, let's say 1 year to account = for coordination, checking etc. It really is not that much of a task. = And once that is done, the amount of new strings is really low. Such = volunteers do not need to be Emacs experts. They need to be Emacs users = and be involved in their native language l10n effort. It will be easy = for them to translate (I can tell since I am not an Emacs/Elisp expert = but have little difficulty working on the French translation). Plus the = translation effort will find a lot of issues in the documentation, so = even the English community will benefit from it. > I believe most users would just use Emacs in English even if the = strings > were translated, as many have their LC_MESSAGES or entire OS in = English: > It's just more convenient for a power user. People who *easily* work in English are not the target of the l10n = effort. The l10n effort will allow for the creation of native = communities about Emacs/Elisp which do not exist at the moment (or are = limited to power users). > The Emacs community is > mostly anglophone already anyways, and I doubt having translations = will > change that at all. The Emacs development community will not be affected by the changes. > Also, given the size of our community and the amount of work = (translating Emacs is translating a programming language runtime + a = collection of applications), it may result to be too much of a burden on = it. See above. > Nevertheless, if translations happen, I'll try to help with Turkish = (my > mother tongue) translations. And please excuse me if I weren't = supposed > to post here as I'm not the most experienced user and have only a = bunch > of patches in Emacs. Thank you very much for your concern. I am not even a power user and = I've contributed only a few lines to Emacs. If you are interested in the = internationalization effort, please join the discussion and help. Other = projects have shown that l10n efforts add a little overhead (considering = the whole development effort) but also brings huge benefits related to = FOSS adoption. Let's work on how to make that a reality! Jean-Christophe=20=