From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 21:27:42 +0300 Message-ID: <57f5a019-1d3a-5d58-8241-0b9b4f324cec@yandex.ru> References: <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27602"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: Juri Linkov , EMACS development team To: tomas@tuxteam.de, chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 15 20:28:58 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIFhK-00074F-PL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:28:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46970 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIFhJ-0003pq-S7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 14:28:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33964) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIFgD-0002su-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 14:27:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::230]:35818) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIFgB-0004TO-JL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 14:27:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id a15so3724078ljk.2 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YIaKtqL5ddLWTi4R6IcAnuYxZk0U7JsfmS/Jj0KtM6k=; b=oWxnaj1sFZ1+zPqKFB5qnIcVj6Rd4TlHuzWak/P3LvTIT51e/jcgGubHG8rUEcUjQu SUik3jbOmUFSigAzXGV/zlybp6KGzVk1o1cs73Sx4dMq2nc5yl4R4shOUINsczMslvFV na7brpbg7ii6v7YKV5khFV74f+JdJyu+IWWcGuP8ViSoW8bDMnEi5WLC1iCpFMPTxRNV JKgiWd16rkwR59easS0hDmji0nyl9Bes/cAyYjKFzcTN4bhDnJVLUVEdCTIVZ7SVZ1c/ lekb7IAsqUamkbO38F2Tog1YZkmrvhRENYM/x97hmf1x6AAQrKdTZwmToqbCGj5sE17z gDPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YIaKtqL5ddLWTi4R6IcAnuYxZk0U7JsfmS/Jj0KtM6k=; b=IrQbHRWwmkFZEVDRtOsqSC2VI4bVP+XDbu6Tj+t6fvFWBqxUow1EubaFujMW44y3t0 g0Y8UL4UlqJ2SAJAzwuJq3onhGPiUV5mRIv04Qa9eHGiI914LJYbUIIIOYRFDfWKU1Gx iqd//e5Xuaq1lWVPzwdDZMmPAdCAKsqUJRjvXY9pLpuVIRZ8TZPvsFPGJIEc97T21YB5 e+KVVmuy1Fug64eFdWN00c/3asJuLcgYQZ6asnib1Zod4HBMZGu6M6PZMSXnrYOSdE54 PpBPRfbB9Er/o/DDl/Kd0TYVD+QpSXJqDAS+T4LXWydjeIB9Fsy3APuxZpIeCOnRiFXh hrog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530pKNcarwWxRG8lLV0qOHbr7j4w93Rs3fv//pAsjjPueO5gt/DW vtGJO+qDpa3hYuMu6DHe3rk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+7RZ+GhR9HngfPIGMOy5umS53fFcjbkTIhWLXLxtNJNh7ydQHD6ijKyOXBtzOWN0hAdJuFQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9955:: with SMTP id r21mr3091844ljj.119.1600194464715; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f26sm4847686ljo.57.2020.09.15.11.27.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:27:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::230; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x230.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255779 Archived-At: On 15.09.2020 11:12, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:45:27AM -0700, chad wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:31 AM wrote: >> >>> But the argument "it's more popular, so it must be better" is too naive, I >>> think. > > [...] > >> try emacs but go (back) to VSCode, because ...". Usually, that sentence >> ends in some form of "it's much easier/more intuitive to get started" or >> "it's quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it just-works'". >> >> In other words, the popularity is a symptom, not a cause. > > This is exactly the point I was putting in question: My > take is that popularity is part of a giant feedback loop, > so it's *both*, a symptom and a cause. And a (non-negligible) > set of forces driving that feedback loop are the marketing > departments of big corps [1]. They wouldn't be doing their > jobs if it weren't so. A feedback loop is of course there. But since we're not in marketing department, and we're not outlining a promotional campaign, it's also irrelevant. We're not living in a vacuum, and we try to help real people. If a feature, or a UI design, or etc, has reached a significant level of popularity, adopting it in our program is likely to be beneficial. When someone comes in with just basic familiarity of other programs such as VS Code, and manages to become productive enough in Emacs faster because of that, it _is_ good. It's far from the only consideration we should make, but scoffing at "popular" misses the point. > Failing to see this leads to this over-eager "how can we > change Emacs to make it more popular" thing, instead of > to a more balanced view, where potential changes are > judged against a more complete set of principles and > goals (newcomer friendliness surely being one of them!). As long as we don't discount familiarity when talking about newcomer friendliness, I agree.