From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:53:38 -0700 Message-ID: <5623EAB2.5000008@dancol.org> References: <561A19AB.5060001@cumego.com> <8737xf9je9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87pp0fm0j3.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3kusx8z.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhb26eb9.fsf@gnu.org> <876126key3.fsf@gnu.org> <83fv1a6bfu.fsf@gnu.org> <87d1weo7u9.fsf@gnu.org> <83zizi3qr0.fsf@gnu.org> <87lhb1n81y.fsf@gnu.org> <83si594wt3.fsf@gnu.org> <87io64iigs.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3kso1gr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wpuks5ek.fsf@T420.taylan> <83vba4i1z3.fsf@gnu.org> <87pp0cqgjf.fsf@T420.taylan> <83twpoi0sp.fsf@gnu.org> <878u70qf75.fsf@T420.taylan> <83mvvghydi.fsf@gnu.org> <5623E3B5.8050407@dancol.org> <87y4f0kos9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qEVu5q1r72F4wT1FhRw3rxUg4VHt82UD7" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445194443 17220 80.91.229.3 (18 Oct 2015 18:54:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 18 20:53:55 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5e-00012g-CM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:53:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35186 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5d-0001BG-Ii for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:53:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40175) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5a-0001BA-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:53:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5W-0004Aq-8u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:53:50 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:52231) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5V-0004Am-Re; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:53:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject; bh=80/GXwdlwRgBjQIJVs/KNSGhs+8JcTybhlnN8sThJlk=; b=JScDn6ljjnsZq8ZsT/WAjwapndzD4Gt1sCYoGfuxIClvh3NMgSYO//T9awj7rFUepq+9EvsyVvCEaOoFsp9Fz5mk+mWvpTnu/3MhBXNSq1Y5XBLHreIIJCJUmGHAjmeNAJFbmWk9A44gAEpJI7gP23XdWzycYTH+7oFYem9GshzCzaNxheJgZ0nVgxWEUNRCQOToVag7nbK1cbu53y6GQN7kA1d3P/Ke3EOGtMlo4yPr0Y1DDMmVlArygClJxjho4I2G6quTfHKYwfg5Xnein5eXfah4AcpmkyM0JSTtbViuz2mJ+LoonGKjVRcyWrXfo1Lq45AolroBqunX0nG5uw==; Original-Received: from c-24-16-208-239.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.16.208.239] helo=[192.168.1.210]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Znt5U-0001gQ-Kl; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:53:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 In-Reply-To: <87y4f0kos9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192000 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qEVu5q1r72F4wT1FhRw3rxUg4VHt82UD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/18/2015 11:35 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > Daniel Colascione writes: >> Wanting to use one language is, IMHO, a poor choice for wanting to >> completely swap out a language. I am opposed to Guilemacs, not only on= >> technical grounds, but also because elisp is essential to Emacs (and >> not just an optional extension system), and I want its implementation >> to live alongside the rest of the Emacs core code. > > I'm not convinced that it's a bad idea to separate the Elisp > implementation more from the Emacs core code. It provides a > well-documented interface between the two: hacking the C code in Emacs > remains a considerable inside job and is not documented on its own. > > So I consider this a strength rather than a weakness of the GuileEmacs > proposition in the long term. I disagree. Integrating the interpreter and the editor makes integrated changes easy. It also makes elisp releases synchronous with Emacs ones. I don't think a strong library separate here gives us anything useful. Consider my recent change to add finalizers to elisp. I saw a need for the feature and just implemented it directly in Emacs. What would the equivalent be in a guilemacs world? I'd have had to make the change upstream in guile (where I suspect the process is much more involved), wait for a stable release of guile, added Emacs support, and then still not have been able to rely on the feature until Emacs dropped support for the last version of Guile to lack the feature. We'd have to go to all that trouble for what, exactly? A cleaner internal API? I don't buy it. Guilemacs has other disadvantages: currently, Emacs supports _only_ elisp as a first-class extension language. Guilemacs would invite people to write Emacs extensions in Scheme, JavaScript, and whatever else Guile ends up supporting, which will create fragmentation. A unified elisp ecosystem is a strength. --qEVu5q1r72F4wT1FhRw3rxUg4VHt82UD7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWI+qyAAoJEN4WImmbpWBlrOMP/1WPt5LwAVw/ezELul8S/Oe1 VcS7sWaGkvyX2YPra3dCT+dY0A8HoIOErB+Hl5CogmYWPSi8n/ntrbacRuWElk7y 6SMvUSso5aa6fOrWNlZxgRZeSjZBcmFC7uRE7Y6ryE8d8uMHomlseb6XDBGZYwp6 TgRun0qQhmyeByfYy365WpdCLe7kHHH9HpL9w6u0rn2qL2GnAj6nBdB+KuGvIOaK x8VDiUCxpYqaMWiCq5P8qHRBJOMIx7R3B9z3BnpZS2HGdJsdAF544ailaLcgFSJr g4p7xKvpFU26I8jT1j1fNd+eKrN7qysyTWSrRVunVmmY9hTIEVcQ5/sUxgNXQs/p vuNXmOPc49MtUbiB3oYg21UwOOgS9/HG2cik9FmGgWSZ+iy6ZYu+5//zMkz38nFE Pjn5sfoJP8YA9is6p+wKpYhnpGFQRrcyP4eBMFhcckWb9dKTfrqxzjADU2Ue0S7p 1FVYiyOJQgN+7zVjTTcXE9kRAlkcg3LBb3bi6I2rGrpLIDWMFcEiBzmqbOoil0mI T44drdWDDcLpYGpcZoi1FgtD289cA7vB4XGHdmlOBQ1MRI0at4v80cSVZkW07qfa QnMSNngNYtjdl1tsX5tzqbkRG5VHKTXdQ7iycM6U2ffcxaOB/sitccFqFcRSVnYm Tu0TtQOaC3IDmFti4dop =enLj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qEVu5q1r72F4wT1FhRw3rxUg4VHt82UD7--