From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:53:58 -0700 Message-ID: <561B8336.6050605@dancol.org> References: <5610207A.2000300@harpegolden.net> <83fv1r3gzp.fsf@gnu.org> <83bncf3f9k.fsf@gnu.org> <5610E0BC.8090902@online.de> <83si5r106e.fsf@gnu.org> <831td9z18h.fsf@gnu.org> <5612E996.7090700@yandex.ru> <83k2qspzx6.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OU39LSQHxjWT4tSLndsGtCrllut2CKI4n" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444643664 21450 80.91.229.3 (12 Oct 2015 09:54:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:54:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers , Richard Stallman , Brief Busters To: John Yates , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 11:54:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZoA-0005TJ-RL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54176 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZoA-0002dw-3I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:54:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39562) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZo6-0002dl-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:54:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZo5-0005de-7z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:54:14 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:58066) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZo4-0005cf-Ux; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:54:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject; bh=bSUD1D0CyYkto485j+go2F5AbxPwQAr14jKCj1Z2ucE=; b=Bx7fsBvkcaUfjmm6FT0jUnL6OBvFHqHHklfuv/D3yPUY1gq4vip2iVEMcCp95rfqpFF5YpCm4QS4nCswWNlGe4JZcSL9GwNyEDoI4S5/0S/lW4VHHD2/Lj1ZAjMpQPRt44LCIGSPH6/Otx8pbY8LFDT4zAdRZgw8hGx4R8LFlgdVoY6PMjC8xzylMMQ4iyGbXNEeRAuUZ8wQHMWVlS8i6IcP9pYXIJoC8Cr8uL1EpxGSV+OsRPfa6toMeLNM65PjtzUIxliM0TZC5/74cvjM/NSZ6jZc6icmK53QwTRof1pXvD0VHQtHafcf+SoZy1mPb0Sfc/8iqucO7B7+NcbzOQ==; Original-Received: from [2620:10d:c090:180::2137] (helo=[IPv6:2620:10d:c081:1101:2ab2:bdff:fe1c:db58]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlZnx-0006gY-3Z; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:54:05 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191310 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --OU39LSQHxjWT4tSLndsGtCrllut2CKI4n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/12/2015 02:45 AM, John Yates wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Eli Zaretskii > wrote: >=20 > All Richard was saying that a debugger front-end is an important > part of an IDE. >=20 >=20 > Eli, >=20 > With all due respect, while you may interpret Richard's words in that > manner, that is not what he wrote. I quoted at the top of my posting > Richard's very first sentence that started this extended thread. Here > it is again in its entirety.: >=20 > > Emacs with GUD is an IDE. >=20 > Given the amount of influence Richard will exert over efforts to fashio= n > Emacs into something approximating a modern IDE I believe it is > reasonable to wonder how familiar he is (or is willing to become) with > such technologies. When we had the long thread some while back about > supporting completion and refactoring I got the sense that Richard was > unfamiliar with the functionality and user experience of modern IDEs.=20 > IIRC he committed to seeking some outside guidance which might have > included becoming more familiar with the current state of typical IDEs.= =20 > If that has yet to happen I wonder how John's anticipated f2f discussio= n > with Richard will go. Well, Emacs with GUD is integrated with GDB, is for development, and is an environment. That this combination still lacks some features of other IDEs doesn't matter, since some heavyweight IDEs lack the features of some others. (Is an IDE without autocompletion an IDE? Is an IDE without automated refactoring tools an IDE? If not, which tools does it need?) "IDE" isn't really a distinct category of program. There's a continuum all the way from ed the standard editor to IntelliJ. We want to move Emacs toward the latter, but there's no distinct point at which Emacs will stop being a text editor and start being an IDE; according to some people, it's already over that line. --OU39LSQHxjWT4tSLndsGtCrllut2CKI4n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWG4M2AAoJEN4WImmbpWBlka8P/29AD3XkH/sWZDCMI7iAZL4+ f94TF3SKxTrsCWXPXWbttygLLpgVs9iKv+AcpKIy7NUrR+RPhxrOMYHjaA8Daw1I R0W9h6vSVGw8uwX0C3eBYs5BsyHtkDLDseeugFVmNpI2SoFw6mreSsEvaH8GJw5o 6GhhZSG4kTkupzn5x+KyMqAMLZox3YFraGI90hkBcoYvDSCj6FVPlPsB2xzcZ7X7 d9DwvhQahvWrkHVgw5+9bLmXSuBmwYG55H8qfKi1Z4bgdW7+ssUqHCCA8KirkbG/ EZPMeoPXt/S0/xvK0B/YtLfPzs1Lc5PtwmyiYBC+rNovNGQCBi74BAUBVSHWC1T6 npVu2tzPrKic/A3i8c7APz/wpGJdsh4588TZmY1MLZAkFufz/+2NpW4tTooN4NKO 91hsZlKX7cHbsKlJMqzHP0OXJ1aVubom4MmpBzrdGDsPQxSpn6NG50ADguM40g+N AE2S3CxnRp7xBHpSvYS7QuWDVw/pxLZUAEolnW4eOyR7xbPbRsKVCQc+dOnG5KlH J6TjCjM1roaS7x6mWR+RpktkVowIFJgEPGQ0zuwq6Sf5AOhUhd/qD2DuYaeytlYk EnKxEN15USI/fpR7JNrxBiyiOwccpIXYTM/Zp+oIEY+kto+C9Mwa4/saHa8T1jFU RlDnw0bkuOe+RlNPL7L9 =3k3A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OU39LSQHxjWT4tSLndsGtCrllut2CKI4n--