From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: RCS, again: another removed functionality: undo last-checkin Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 22:29:30 +0300 Message-ID: <560D899A.4080805@yandex.ru> References: <87oagx6tzz.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <55FF4026.2050004@yandex.ru> <83si68nu4i.fsf@gnu.org> <87eghsfd3m.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k2rknr2c.fsf@gnu.org> <87mvwellmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <56023A6C.3020302@yandex.ru> <5602BE3E.1050009@yandex.ru> <5602C4DE.8020105@yandex.ru> <560B4899.2070708@yandex.ru> <83y4fobegc.fsf@gnu.org> <560BC73C.4040403@yandex.ru> <83d1x0atb2.fsf@gnu.org> <560C9EDA.3040207@yandex.ru> <83vbar9hv3.fsf@gnu.org> <560D2CFD.50702@yandex.ru> <83a8s2agar.fsf@gnu.org> <560D6F13.3090005@yandex.ru> <83si5u8oik.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1443728881 6436 80.91.229.3 (1 Oct 2015 19:48:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:48:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, dak@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 01 21:47:46 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhjpM-00056m-UM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 21:47:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55800 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhjpM-0008HA-B4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:47:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhjXt-0002y5-QG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:29:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhjXq-0004Qr-Cg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:29:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]:34824) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhjXq-0004Qa-78; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:29:34 -0400 Original-Received: by wicge5 with SMTP id ge5so3891478wic.0; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 12:29:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vGQ9kvGz2dtcJOOu0mvVuzikkQilb6ea+9/BxapxHP0=; b=OYGZ/rsiTK6p7+etY5r+QaT7nRXDE0z68fhzGWuCVrRGeFFDU08M4s1eicpd7colCz f/MeiVNMXDjQ7lhQm5jR1+P19agJ4TM3zmEamAwgSK3GBw6/OqJsv5zCu86XS9wPJ5pf isXXhASl9fzcFGR9DHOEjT0dLiFHH6uZX1tPCAftohlEMha6PLun62a6LBLqV/Yjqpvj vThNlcj9e294ap4hxnIEansfQrbdm/YkF/ZFTe4LHxrgF8U+hQmRPwIr06jjwbQD2/cD 8+TJAtu8aDZe70Cgi8M/xB7JuIQWhXWPMnKlaPC9ESsgDvBH1aZ49cJltU8/c/th5jJt wjmw== X-Received: by 10.180.187.141 with SMTP id fs13mr483907wic.13.1443727773458; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 12:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [10.9.0.103] (nat.webazilla.com. [78.140.128.228]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id it4sm7675648wjb.0.2015.10.01.12.29.31 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Oct 2015 12:29:32 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/41.0 In-Reply-To: <83si5u8oik.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:190585 Archived-At: On 10/01/2015 08:52 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I indeed think that features should rarely be removed, only added. Then you must be prepared that at certain point the cost of improving Emacs will be too much for anyone to do anything of significance to it. > Yes, but different VCSes have different internal logic, so something > might make sense with RCS, but not with Git, or vice versa. That's > the crux of the problem we are discussing, I think, so the question is > whether a feature must make sense for every back-end for it to be > considered as sensible. It may be decided on a case-by-case basis, but the question is rather whether it *could* be decided at all. The exact criterion, "make sense for at least a half of all backends", or "make sense in at least one of the modern backends", is up for discussion. > I disagree that this sacrifice is always possible, let > alone desirable. Especially when the change in the workflow boils > down to "do it from outside Emacs". I still think it's just fine for rare operations. Even those performed regularly, but at long-ish intervals. > I think there's a better alternative: start a new front end, which > will only support a subset of back-ends. Then the elders can > peacefully continue using the old front-end, which will more or less > stop being developed, only maintained whenever some of the > infrastructure changes absolutely require that. It's an option indeed, though one that requires a larger investment of time (which we don't have a lot of to spare). And what if we make some unfortunate decision WRT to features when creating the second front-end, too? Wait a few years and create a third one? It also assumes that the set of backend commands can be static without incurring any cost. Whereas the most recent overhaul by ESR featured some beneficial changes in it. > Muscle memory is what stopping them. It's a powerful thing. It's easier to change than a big codebase full of features one is absolutely not allowed to break.