From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: save-excursion and the mark Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:02:23 -0700 Message-ID: <5531AD1F.2000802@dancol.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2ec1WTF8lp1n0UTc7ARLq2jiU982c5aI0" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429318992 5817 80.91.229.3 (18 Apr 2015 01:03:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 01:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier , Magnar Sveen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 18 03:02:58 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9s-0001lX-B8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:02:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44135 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9r-0007Ka-Ly for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:02:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52340) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9b-0007KV-If for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:02:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9a-0002Pe-G0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:02:39 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:43073) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9a-0002No-4m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:02:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=kXnggZWesZG8dtbZFEhJJno1U49bY3pIjE9Lo4SpSCk=; b=pO8ZsbjdgpiBtnX1aqqg5okJgwQsvp/R7SR2yav04sBCBlJSbza5XEa6RiKYZTICrC9ErSkKT2dWdvhW/sz/pimaMt9TmXxJB14NrJrbRhMCYlEEmE+vUn+fLsW+6Jsz7ZEf05dxIsijlOGA8nDOwYxYfSOUBH1QXi+RpDAN79BCiYDhEaemy3uBBUVx8OZMgoujZCoCBugO4fyOQdbviJ7t9R+m8TLSGPnV8RxFMUlWgVgMjUmb7dacyvr128iWJ+/hdHdNIkc2tDeZfrl200oF29UZf/vv3f9pgocY6v4GEt2Ek3Q9Qd5+EQ41FEL3UKVbf22dgJfRZ37nTHSf5g==; Original-Received: from [2620:10d:c082:1054:2ab2:bdff:fe1c:db58] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YjH9S-0007rC-8R; Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:02:30 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:185546 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2ec1WTF8lp1n0UTc7ARLq2jiU982c5aI0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/15/2015 07:59 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> That wouldn't solve the problems with save-excursion. >> You're calling save-excursion a "broken API", but it's in use everywhe= re - >=20 > Yes, the save-point part of it is used everywhere and works well. > The save-mark part of it was used pretty much nowhere and does not work= well. >=20 >> it is a staple of emacs lisp - and has been working for years. >=20 > Still works. Just ever so slightly differently. >=20 >> So yeah, offering an alternative for the 1% of cases where it isn't >> working as intended would solve the problem. With no breakage. >=20 > As mentioned, there was breakage. >=20 >> It's not like you'll get a proper error message when it breaks. >=20 > I know, just like the previously existing breakage that got fixed by > this change. >=20 >> Are you seriously expecting users of Emacs to storm into emacs-devel i= n >> anticipation of their code breaking prior to a release? >=20 > There's already been very hot debates about this change, but actual > examples of broken code have been really hard to come by, so despite th= e > heat I've gotten, am getting, and will keep getting, I'll stick to my > guns for now. >=20 >> Or are you talking about rolling back a breaking change after the fact= , >=20 > That's clearly an option. Doing so after 25.1 is released would be > highly unlikely, but until 25.1 the change is tentative. >=20 >> creating issues for new code relying on new behavior? >=20 > Based on what I've seen of existing uses of save-excursion, I'm not > worried about this. >=20 >> It was just the other day that I pointed out a package in Emacs that's= >> from 1999 to a friend. It's not been changed since. I used it as an >> example of how stable Emacs is, and how it allows for a piece of >> software to be done. Really done. This new attitude towards breaking= >> changes saddens me in that light. >=20 > Every Emacs release introduced incompatible changes. Maybe more so > under my maintainership, I don't know. >=20 > But the only thing that could change my opinion, I think, is more > evidence that this change breaks a lot of code (and of course, such > evidence is stronger when found in high-quality code, since I'm more > willing to break bad code than good code). FWIW, I agree that breaking strict compatibility in this particular instance is the right thing to do. --2ec1WTF8lp1n0UTc7ARLq2jiU982c5aI0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJVMa0fAAoJEN4WImmbpWBl8CcP/iwiKZuprcYgV/6tVJAvVn0l N5jqk/C/cFVWpwA7p+Qtv/BNZQTBw1fX/ku/OugvBNBiuMwmzLAqQeLfAQNrQnXM TN8rME6lPEYBV+54/49QMwkTYQD2SK0/nAMNoiKdNLzXUbUTemSRl+ArvU0aJpdr kqyqXlPg3lwEn9meegZ4O4S7si5qt2wHY76w3TXTvnJ77A96E7ZvrbUxF/yFUWBp PHY9yFeAqJgqeqGKHq8yTaAZ8aeXAclHlgG3FETncXf2+R7gDXuWzkMWoiU+dd6J woQOh8pZTK0tLk743pB8gvpGCnnCh3EfA8N9lhHmlCeTdJNj20K4H8IEZmWEfQbb mNd4kFEfBoVof9BLKDl1FqRYZoKxqCwtXcytHGzGr9E5v9LM1y9bKsaQjePSjYKE GDsnJj9q04LkEowezz1oRY2CAVSodcfe4nFenN2kUULSFnd9WK5q7Z9dgEdexUES Ix9PM9+obd2DmyWuOQxNT/u/3wc+IKc9Ft+hy8X49WrQmQRjN+MQcmsfXuz8rVFn DoL+mfXh5LPsU7tha0k5KPIFynykd1YCc3HtMlxPKBptDQebvpiAxZVkWyPdKO5O D5BCRyNApRdHn8XJ57zQFT+tt2CvpDbQf5iwL9sIuezmqUof50TpNn89sbLXRyOC otE8hteR1R8kzOa+2fmB =3X/w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2ec1WTF8lp1n0UTc7ARLq2jiU982c5aI0--