From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: On obsoleting defcustoms Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:37:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <53945b2b-cb3f-4823-85e1-ff8676f10161@default> References: <> <<83lfh743j8.fsf@gnu.org>> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33679"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 12 22:38:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKIV-0008dE-Df for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:38:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50028 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKIU-0003zY-GV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 16:38:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKHe-0003XX-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 16:37:34 -0500 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:44902) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKHc-0002Hj-6f; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 16:37:33 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0ACLJUWN076734; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:37:29 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=gXew7wFkhaP/7M514FFwV8mZqNXTNZuw59SCcCtFYGI=; b=TmmbwOhoG2+8aZ8fPEJsA8MMbQgqh8Zu8LA0rwA5tn33YZXZ+LC3HaEWlnK818Yvrxej ngOrHmcJ4nssNljhMDeQee9GUpHPIsA0x5r2tlg6sw/MvWlvlQrOOEJdJjnaY6PH686q q6NniZ5ugRCtfFuqKGebFYGZsado6i7qXnfV+8qFpmj16vkjr01RTKMT09HVX/8ac0vg rv3B8+rg+5rQbFoCsjUPrWn/Q79U6lzR8u6u5U4BPYUjrpaNb4KoMFyERg4cM1wkPMtG 67t4wRHuCXivRIpEEembzTvTAYRS8ACPcqhQNIqbNC0YFaFjemphJu5ktRws/8Oix1lF QQ== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 34p72ex001-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:37:29 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0ACLFLeK052132; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:37:28 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 34p55rx58r-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:37:28 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0ACLbPsj027323; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:37:27 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83lfh743j8.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9803 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011120124 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9803 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011120124 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/12 16:37:30 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:259105 Archived-At: > > Would it make sense to change ignored options such as this into > > defvars instead? >=20 > What problem would that solve? Not all obsolete defcustoms have no > effect, do they? >=20 > > 2. Finding out that an option is obsolete > > > > The obsolete options use a different face. However, it's not obvious > > that this is the meaning of that face. >=20 > IMO, we shouldn't show obsolete options at all in a Custom buffer, for > the same reason why we remove them from the manuals. Just because something is declared obsolete, that doesn't (normally) mean that it's not supported or that it doesn't still work. Dunno whether that's true (always? sometimes? never?) for Emacs. But if it is, then why would it make any more sense to remove customization of an obsolete option that it would to remove advising an obsolete function or setting an obsolete defvar? If people are concerned about someone continuing to use something that's obsolete, why not just have Customize give a warning/message saying that the option is obsolete, and=20 that the effect of changing its value is undefined? That's assuming that Emacs takes the (unusual, IME) point of view that, once declared obsolete, something should no longer be usable. And in that case, the right way to handle it would be to raise an error when it's used. We don't, thankfully, do that.