From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 23:30:33 -0700 Message-ID: <531EAD89.5010505@dancol.org> References: <83bnxuzyl4.fsf@gnu.org> <871tyqes5q.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87a9ddg7o8.fsf@engster.org> <87d2i9ee8t.fsf@engster.org> <874n3ke1qn.fsf@engster.org> <87sir336qn.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <20140301215057.GA19461@thyrsus.com> <87fvn1y0vx.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87fvn0senq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761nusb90.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HvAENMdWXL3k0O51cxjmGef7nLwMXh3NG" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1394519461 16795 80.91.229.3 (11 Mar 2014 06:31:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 06:31:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, dak@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 11 07:31:10 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGDW-0006MP-2a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:31:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52548 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGDU-0006pY-Rt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 02:31:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43624) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGDN-0006jq-5B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 02:31:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGDH-0007AT-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 02:31:01 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:48725) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGD6-00077B-Mp; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 02:30:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=2yKGYG0IYXGavKYO//PMBLwsl2I4zeLVuCX1/j201F4=; b=rR/nkCizcJzbAQPG61o+3l98hUFJWfgq7tHVAW68pDr5kJoLSYoY9Ln1DcMV4M4npiL+GrUPi/+/I74y19wCS2nBfePKhM5hF49DcPRhWQ2o+C5Nu7ZmsmcmvFPuYQQ5Bo24DrQAyqqHE+rhDX97I8RTopFEM7WpxYgObi6e7OyNHa31yn1S3p9XOPiXlIjkwDfMSRvWwJ/DKqbM1PR8m7xu5IGSSiVXcMHCbQ/F90Oo5eozVCz0CJErf1JELrfPGG29uNUvpMZkoN1jJy1bkqRYA689LH7WyTj/f7EuT9Yas8NWRM7lh5z3xetTeoxTKdEHunqVjNEu5sqEA9nVrw==; Original-Received: from c-76-104-210-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([76.104.210.106] helo=[192.168.1.50]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WNGCx-0004Ft-83; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 23:30:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:170272 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HvAENMdWXL3k0O51cxjmGef7nLwMXh3NG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/10/2014 07:40 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >=20 > But if as a result of those measures, all development moves from GC= C to > Clang/LLVM, this will be a pyrrhic victory :-( >=20 > That's what life is like. If you fight, you might lose. If you > surrender, you lose for certain. Suicidal charges on entrenched positions make for great drama, but poor results; it's better to run and fight another day. Many smart, experienced people (far more so than I am) have made this point, and it might be helpful not to immediately dismiss [1] their advice The GNU project found early success in creating tools that plugged into non-free ecosystems. GNU tools were better than the proprietary alternatives, so it's natural that people chose to use them. Users of these tools found the FSF's political message, agreed with it, wrote more free software, and proselytized. Eventually, there was enough free software to build a whole operating system. Free software would have never achieved its present success if the GNU project had built an incompatible operating system and stocked it with inferior tools. If it had, GNU would have been another Plan 9, and we'd have been stuck with far more proprietary software. Today, there's a new ecosystem. Clang isn't really a program that competes with GCC. Instead, it's an entire self-contained universe of development tools, one that includes a compiler and linker, of course, but also a debugger, code formatter, static analyzer, JIT system, and various source-to-source translators, indexers, and IDEs. The ecosystem approach to toolchain development has tremendous technical advantages and is a real advance in the state of the art. It's an idea, not a program; you can fight it no better than Canute could fight the tide. This new ecosystem is actually a tremendous opportunity for copyleft free software. Right now, the LLVM world is full of defenseless permissively-licensed programs, and proprietary components (e.g., GPU compilers) are encroaching upon it. This situation is unfortunate, but we can salvage it. Instead of decrying Clang, we should integrate Emacs and GCC into it as tightly as possible. Entice users with technical superiority, then help them understand the other benefits of using software that defend their freedoms. Start the same positive feedback loop that helped GNU succeed in the first place. While this strategy will temporarily allow proprietary software makers to benefit from the work invested in free software, free components will gradually supplant proprietary ones. The same logic that applies to competing programs in general apples in the special case of interoperating LLVM-based components. After free software fills all the important niches in this ecosystem, users will once again be spared the choice between free and useful software. If the FSF pursues its current strategy, however, and current trends continue, the LLVM world and the traditional one will drift apart, and in a few years, users will face this choice with increasing frequency. Do you really think users are going to forgo useful, gratis features because you tell them they're being naughty? Do you really think developers will choose inferior tools, and thereby work harder, die sooner, and provide less for their children all because you scold them for not following some moral principle that, from their perspective, produces only acrimony and missing features? In the past, the GNU project did an excellent job of demonstrating not only the moral, but also the practical benefits of free software. Right now, you're doing a poor job of demonstrating how it's in the interest of developers to choose copyleft software and doing a disservice to your own cause. [1] I want to preempt the charge of working to undermine free software. You should assume that we're all working in good faith. On numerous occasions (e.g., ), you've argued those who disagreed with your decisions could be doing so only out of a secret desire to undermine free software. Statements like "I don't trust your judgment about how to achieve our goals because you don't want to achieve them." are circular nonsense. Supporting the goal of ubiquitous free software is not synonymous with supporting your particular strategy for achieving it, and frankly, it's disturbing that you think that it is. Leaders who adopt this sort of attitude seldom end up on the right side of history. --HvAENMdWXL3k0O51cxjmGef7nLwMXh3NG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTHq2JAAoJEMAaIROpHW7I3RkP/128fZR1WWAbD5BOYvPs7SBx u3lrWpCP4Zkv0ayrnZgRvGh/YnYNWeebh4HO9KvzkmXm6katlFz+FjR+8+vVu7/n MSzcoHUfKQIdbiLX8h3+dszLgE3k2WezRAXJTnp0Edz9YfHWFShooT4zupatjZ3W 4MBd7P1WzpWItP9WnAGwy31NyekQWJS/eFZ0yvI1PVsSExtQARsUOoxg9MO8XAml DmLICgJxnojegoekge+cUV+Z5KERIAnBG0RdZRLw/slNfHguWzlPTzJIRoF5b1Tb 5mFX2x29uS/lly7tsZA8EHNLkYJ/BlK641R8rY3EmbKVpXI/K5l6LxBasjQ85AfA +sQmtWLoozeXomMFmGopGO3yhINOO6zj+rOE6O5o9TlOQ+I+asGMYz1YEF5xGigM nj9TGTd4t+WJ5Utj606JyxKDtq6DNGD/4gHVbmGH0lSREs2oDTj29hVKnNiRseaM bWmkEFoUjH1q+x2TLKxzHSRV0sgh86rGW8wtL2jgPWQ7H2HYknuODwcuBmt6hxQT pnT65hdpKcAAUmx4neMQ5/0lbnwnVfDzewnB5iU8ycfsPY+8Z4GLFjLiLRUEHOVg 1K0z8E15FvNuG7v6z+5aKeSPip5qgp0kOJKc3Tnm9WmcMmMofcyxVB/Xz7CpR0ON xKz6+GqSBPyQ2DmQUo9B =AfwQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HvAENMdWXL3k0O51cxjmGef7nLwMXh3NG--