From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jarek Czekalski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default behaviour of RET. Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:45:16 +0200 Message-ID: <52662D0C.100@poczta.onet.pl> References: > <8361sqli02.fsf@gnu.org>> <1730ebf3-db44-498c-b2a9-4d288d83a946@default> <87k3h6xuen.fsf@yandex.ru> <1878e4fa-50f2-4655-a4ff-30d1db708ee8@default> <5D2595BD-AC11-4FB6-B363-31EBE28A0AE0@mit.edu> <36f9f9af-4a5c-46a9-8ba3-a542d902b7f6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1382427932 32002 80.91.229.3 (22 Oct 2013 07:45:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:45:32 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 22 09:45:35 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VYWel-0006Ln-Oz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:45:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43440 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYWel-0002MG-EQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:45:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36723) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYWeb-0002L4-QX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:45:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYWeW-0001Dp-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:45:25 -0400 Original-Received: from smtpo09.poczta.onet.pl ([213.180.142.140]:45641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYWeV-0001De-T3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:45:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.17.9] (cj.e-siemianowice.pl [95.215.234.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl) by smtp.poczta.onet.pl (Onet) with ESMTPSA id 3d3mwG2Frfz9vF4K for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:45:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=poczta.onet.pl; s=2011; t=1382427918; bh=5L0X4AJ8JOwsCYTDmbNvPRtZUxgAiHfERcsM/afzn9Q=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=R1Eq6CZob7btdXXPqYCb0ji3LC59lJdglqC1npBsWXq0G39nkHfMvQl/ykDwahhGX dGPBB14a0S6XItY+Gho7AoKMC4hjavWoyIu9vGc1wL9yK6u0XYCkkkpu44I/bQ56EM yLE3WD/zURqYegkC++xLYWTwzz/VWmei6wa8ZgJo= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 In-Reply-To: <36f9f9af-4a5c-46a9-8ba3-a542d902b7f6@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 213.180.142.140 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:164452 Archived-At: Some of the problems seem to be agreed, like retaining 2 different behaviours. But whether to choose a more popular solution - it requires a philosophical background. You need to choose whether Emacs should remain a weird editor for geeks who do everything in the opposite way or whether it should be better approachable for new users. When I gave a shot at Emacs 2 years ago, I quit in a matter of seconds. Not having shift-selection was enough for me to bury Emacs. If you don't get fresh users, the editor may gradually become less popular. Am I right guessing that the average age of Emacs users is greater than of any other editor? So it may be called "getting old". We don't like if a nation is getting old, so I think we should not like an editor getting old too. Users must be drawn to draw developers. New blood, alternation of generations. So more generally I would stick to the following rule: do everything like others do, unless there are serious reasons to do it differently. A small non-counting voice on the RET behaviour from Emacs newbie: don't connect it with the electric-mode. I don't like indentation changes at any other moment except: on demand, for newline. I want new RET behavior without electric-mode. I would simply edit all modes. Personally I use for newline-and-indent and for newline. Jarek