From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:50:24 +0300 Message-ID: <515af795-9cb7-b92f-340c-d3a80645684e@yandex.ru> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> <87mu1xrjqw.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <1d991f36-1cc7-d801-6cfb-bfd5541efc77@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11817"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: Gregory Heytings , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 14:51:10 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGiWE-0002yh-0W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:51:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54768 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGiWD-0003ZJ-1T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:51:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38668) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGiVa-0002ih-BS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:50:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]:40147) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGiVY-0003h7-Dw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:50:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s205so12314655lja.7 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 05:50:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NVMbaIfb3Ty/mShGx5rIjd/gW1IfmEH99EVhR+ytvjg=; b=TJxc9PrZlH18yefsV6lWaV1CJCHWdn5LveSJcUZpjzoMF5Fy9ibsW7TKxuV1gQIUad xrKkudyfo3WQKNOoY/l9p9rs1Zh/nVSrIEMVLoPxY9e6dxMP9fdVUEOgtfqHUZHz4pPT T6MTozm6bD17Fipqo02qkvThrtjRxK04NYbxupC4bRTUEDIVXYMkhC8DfkSC1lkzTv17 RLW1vPxtapVdi9sSwOIQI/XhHIYPYzNjjlCTwNwfswhNnn7iSjxSg3kDd2o4urR3tlRU 1CUJRIwKupvpm2cckFO0ZUcV1Yv3YkB/tgUTyR1L11mcnZWrkfSLmTYhbSL3qIGY4xDt /lcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NVMbaIfb3Ty/mShGx5rIjd/gW1IfmEH99EVhR+ytvjg=; b=LSUijtIhzXWb9/rJSuiTivKG6ekSMNwonzEGn4U2Egs6zEPCY913UnKrHmjRk5DdTw 0XTdgzMuPRL6D/iRbOvefCeL2cRIbXGq5+6CagOe5Rwsij9gwdT7tQlLup2yRmGs+VQB fwVgIJXNJywEtYWd4yL4KNUxva39b/qzjdaQorHB3IVPEbWF7zlxYM0Aa3IDiGGu3leb zkxj3TjFoKq1jXgFf8VXTlKAP67zeO4V3iKbK5Q0vme90v7g/3j5Dabr0nhc7E3Ku/U/ GaxtBGM/JGmJE1Zh+UfgAmhHNe2pSvccKWahGem/UKcOe8HfY7rQH3KDt/AuFUh3k7JR rs7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53355xzYi31AXDU3rdzTL+YgJLOSJuaW4kJpo9OEegEQ/p0BPnUZ +2h8Qtr6NhTxrS/GlWKRMvmk0B9rbJhD1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBblody5z0GugACp0xFpoDtTsYQ55dtx9Tydn9bLIfm5qORuSTJcGN4FCfE1U8dpv/vqtD4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:760d:: with SMTP id r13mr757669ljc.67.1599828626001; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 05:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m206sm66566lfa.301.2020.09.11.05.50.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Sep 2020 05:50:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22d; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x22d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -39 X-Spam_score: -4.0 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.469, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255161 Archived-At: On 11.09.2020 14:00, Arthur Miller wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> On 11.09.2020 00:21, Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions. wrote: >>> I'm not a maintainer, but FWIW my opinion is that what will most likely happen >>> is that they will never agree to do this.  Menus are not "modern". >> >> That's certainly the current trend in Emacs customizations, but it's not a >> universal rule. >> >> VS Code has a traditional menu. Atom has a menu. Visual Studio and IntelliJ IDEA >> of course have them too. > When I used to make money by programming VBA with MS Office and C++ with > VStudio I used to turn off all toolbars and menus I could. Back then > computer screens where much smaller then today, and even today I still > fight for vertical screen estate on my computer. I do too. But menus should be helpful for newcomers (and when they are not, we should improve them). So having "starter kits" disable the menus right away seems counter-productive. BTW, the Unity DE and Sublime Text editor included an alternative UI for menus, where you hit a key (Alt, in the case of Unity) and then fuzzy match on command description. > For that reason, on my home computer I run a WM without decorations, Emacs > without any gui elements more then main gui window, Firefox & Gimp with > menus and gui hidden etc. I have never used IntellliJ software, but I > guess they will give you option to maximize the working area by > disabling the gui items too. > > Anyway, I don't think GUI should be disabled by default; that should be left to > the user. I am really curious which distro you run :-)? I use Ubuntu with GNOME and the Unite extension which emulates Unity to the best extent possible. That means removing application title bars when the app is maximized, moving their contents (such as menus) to the top panel when possible. So it's the kind of changes as you did, but to a smaller extent.