From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Hedlund Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Should https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/efaq/Fullscreen-mode-on-MS_002dWindows.html be renamed to Maxmize-mode-on-MS_002dWindows.html ? Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:55:46 +0200 Message-ID: <4ffcb78e-3735-4c9d-9755-ff3403ca8071@beloved.name> References: <83o7hjahlw.fsf@gnu.org> <837co7a4po.fsf@gnu.org> <8ca2201b-c0f9-4e8d-b4ca-82d02ad78b99@beloved.name> <8334yva2m8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------dUFZu9IaI606wmiNIXCHMEzt" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24878"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 21 14:56:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1quBX8-0006G7-AS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:56:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quBWH-0003og-Qt; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:55:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quBWF-0003oP-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:55:55 -0400 Original-Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([2001:4b98:dc4:8::224]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quBWC-0001g7-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:55:55 -0400 Original-Received: by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7662DE0004 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 12:55:47 +0000 (UTC) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-GND-Sasl: public@beloved.name Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:4b98:dc4:8::224; envelope-from=public@beloved.name; helo=relay4-d.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311652 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------dUFZu9IaI606wmiNIXCHMEzt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-10-21 11:35, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> Next, the alternative solution does have a drawback, albeit a minor >>> one: it uses early-init.el, something that is explicitly NOT >>> recommended for display-related customizations. It evidently works in >>> this case, but advertising this in the FAQ flies in the face of our >>> general recommendation not to do this kind of stuff there. >> Specifically, the Emacs user manual says: >> >> We do not recommend that you move into ‘early-init.el’ customizations >> that can be left in the normal init files. That is because the early >> init file is read before the GUI is initialized, so customizations >> related to GUI features will not work reliably in ‘early-init.el’. By >> contrast, the normal init files are read after the GUI is initialized. >> If you must have customizations in the early init file that rely on GUI >> features, make them run off hooks provided by the Emacs startup, such as >> ‘window-setup-hook’ or ‘tty-setup-hook’. *Note Hooks::. >> >> So I wonder whether we should advertise the suggested addition for >> early-init file. Stefan, WDYT? > I honestly don't know. Do we foresee any issues with it? > > BTW, how would one otherwise affect the default frame parameters, if not > by adding it to "early-init.el"? It seems like you have no choice but > modify `default-frame-alist' before the first frame is created, if you > want it to affect the first frame. So perhaps doing it this way is "the > right thing", even? > > The above text speaks of "customizations related to GUI features", but > doesn't give any examples. I'm not an expert at that stuff, so it's > hard for me to understand which features might be covered by that. > Perhaps it's a small list that could be enumerated exhaustively, or > perhaps it's basically everything with a few exceptions. > >> Is this indeed a "frequently-asked" question, about GNU/Linux? If it >> is, I'm okay with adding such a section, or even rewriting this >> section (and renaming it) to make it not Windows-specific. But we do >> not usually add here answers for questions just because they _could_ >> be asked. Again, I'd like to hear Stefan's opinion on this. > I agree that the FAQ should focus on, well, Frequently Asked Questions. > The work I'd personally like to see on the FAQ would be to get rid of > old stuff, which is no longer asked much, and adding new stuff which is. > That way, perhaps it would become more popular and useful, in particular > to new users. > > This particular case is not easy to answer. I have never heard this > question before, but that might be because I've used tiling window > managers since basically forever. So I feel like I might be biased. If you want, you can try the early-init.el instead for a while to get comfortable with it. > David, if you think this question is asked often, could you tell us a > bit more about it? I understand that it might be hard to provide URLs, > but even just anecdotes might be useful. > It's already to the FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/efaq.html#Fullscreen-mode-on-MS_002dWindows Also, people expect GUIs that can start with a maximized window to not gradually expand it. Emacs is the only GUI that behaves this way of all the GUIs that I'm currently using. --------------dUFZu9IaI606wmiNIXCHMEzt Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 2023-10-21 11:35, Stefan Kangas wrote:
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:


Next, the alternative solution does have a drawback, albeit a minor
one: it uses early-init.el, something that is explicitly NOT
recommended for display-related customizations.  It evidently works in
this case, but advertising this in the FAQ flies in the face of our
general recommendation not to do this kind of stuff there.

Specifically, the Emacs user manual says:

     We do not recommend that you move into ‘early-init.el’ customizations
  that can be left in the normal init files.  That is because the early
  init file is read before the GUI is initialized, so customizations
  related to GUI features will not work reliably in ‘early-init.el’.  By
  contrast, the normal init files are read after the GUI is initialized.
  If you must have customizations in the early init file that rely on GUI
  features, make them run off hooks provided by the Emacs startup, such as
  ‘window-setup-hook’ or ‘tty-setup-hook’.  *Note Hooks::.

So I wonder whether we should advertise the suggested addition for
early-init file.  Stefan, WDYT?

I honestly don't know.  Do we foresee any issues with it?

BTW, how would one otherwise affect the default frame parameters, if not
by adding it to "early-init.el"?  It seems like you have no choice but
modify `default-frame-alist' before the first frame is created, if you
want it to affect the first frame.  So perhaps doing it this way is "the
right thing", even?

The above text speaks of "customizations related to GUI features", but
doesn't give any examples.  I'm not an expert at that stuff, so it's
hard for me to understand which features might be covered by that.
Perhaps it's a small list that could be enumerated exhaustively, or
perhaps it's basically everything with a few exceptions.


Is this indeed a "frequently-asked" question, about GNU/Linux?  If it
is, I'm okay with adding such a section, or even rewriting this
section (and renaming it) to make it not Windows-specific.  But we do
not usually add here answers for questions just because they _could_
be asked.  Again, I'd like to hear Stefan's opinion on this.

I agree that the FAQ should focus on, well, Frequently Asked Questions.
The work I'd personally like to see on the FAQ would be to get rid of
old stuff, which is no longer asked much, and adding new stuff which is.
That way, perhaps it would become more popular and useful, in particular
to new users.

This particular case is not easy to answer.  I have never heard this
question before, but that might be because I've used tiling window
managers since basically forever.  So I feel like I might be biased.

If you want, you can try the early-init.el instead for a while to get comfortable with it.

David, if you think this question is asked often, could you tell us a
bit more about it?  I understand that it might be hard to provide URLs,
but even just anecdotes might be useful.

It's already to the FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/efaq.html#Fullscreen-mode-on-MS_002dWindows

Also, people expect GUIs that can start with a maximized window to not gradually expand it. Emacs is the only GUI that behaves this way of all the GUIs that I'm currently using.


--------------dUFZu9IaI606wmiNIXCHMEzt--