From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs project mission (was Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:242672 Archived-At: > The question was why a lot of users shy away > from reporting bugs to us. That's an assumption at this point, no? What evidence has been presented, besides anecdotal? You said that you ask people right and left to file bug reports, but many don't do so. You can legitimately ask why, I guess, if that's true. But I noted the opposite, in my experience. I do the same thing, on the same sites you mentioned, and IME most _do_ follow up by filing bugs. I consider it a good way to inform users about `M-x report-emacs-bug' and to encourage them to get involved by suggesting enhancements and pointing out problems they encounter. Granted, I think posters on Reddit are maybe less likely than those on emacs.StackExchange or StackOverflow. I've had good luck with those Q&A sites. But my point is that your reports and my reports about this are anecdotal. Why do we think that lots of people, as you say, are really scared away by `M-x report-emacs-bug'? Is that a fact? If so, how do we know that? I see hand-waving about what users are used to and assumptions that they won't use email to report bugs. It might be true that younger people use email less than older people. But are we sure this has _in fact_ been a problem holding younger users back from reporting bugs and suggesting enhancements? People use all kinds of ways to communicate now - not just email, of course, but not just GIT either. And Emacs users need not be developers. So far, this sounds a bit like a solution in search of a problem. Where's the evidence that email reporting is holding users back? --- On another front, I will say this, not about a web tracker but about our web page for Emacs bugs, debbugs.gnu.org/: I think it could use some improvement. It's OK, if you know a bug number or you just want to see the latest 10 bugs or so. I do use that web page/interface, when I want to see all of a thread I'm interested in. More commonly, I use it when I want to point someone (e.g. at one of the Q&A/discussion sites we've mentioned) to a particular bug thread - just give 'em a URL. But to be frank, I've never been able to _find_ bugs on that site by searching. I find it incomprehensible and unhelpful. Maybe that's just me; dunno. Instead, if I need to search for a bug I search emails I've saved locally in my mail client. Seriously. After I've found the bug I might go to debbugs.gnu.org to see the complete thread or to get a URL for a thread or message. Note that this is _very_ different from the use of GNU mailing-list archives, such as lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/. Not that search is better there (it's not). But for finding things in other ways (date, Subject), and for accessing a thread tree or parts of it, I find it superior to debbugs.gnu.org. I can understand it, and I can find what I need there. Yes, I know that the purposes are very different: mailing list archive vs bug interface. Even so, I think adding to debbugs.gnu.org the kind of email-archive access/organization we have for the mailing lists would already provide an improvement. It's not very important to me whether what I'm saying has an effect on this discussion. I'm not proposing anything - just relating my use and impression of debbugs.gnu.org as a web interface. One takeaway, though, from this post: Regardless of any other value of having a web interface (whether or not people can use it to file or modify bugs, i.e., even if its only use is to view them), there is value in being able to point users to a bug thread on the web. AFAIK, that value hasn't yet been pointed out here.