From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:12:53 +0300 Message-ID: <4d53a371-2976-a861-e2e4-403ce64a4576@yandex.ru> References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1440"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 13:14:31 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lacid-0000Gk-9S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:14:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48246 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lacic-0002Et-Bv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:14:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57880) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lachE-0001jQ-2R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:13:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::429]:41861) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lach9-0005p0-Cv; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:13:01 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id c4so13973274wrt.8; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:12:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fuc1sIvEfGrvg7yH639eibypLNUfJiiWsr15IBzSub8=; b=RrZ9FsB4wJROsWHss9PhdCStqVO6Bin0icr5n3jbcTHu/CYw2IBpWxOKbJoIYPlmfp PZJtE06+CGGd2WXCDNpZRV8fL69MfVdqp72qSJMAh6Hu1nlwt1wg7Mn0H7aZyqgpSuH9 xt9BUWQHCUZiAPAzu5aP4fzMiuzg3/706Kci7rJmgT3+nThP3idYL2Z9rsJpF+JiH+NJ mJ23weJgSY5lO2lLpw8ShG78/f+HouY7+vm8RxuuYCF3XmDv0kAshMfonVTzZHzC2v4k WmMzDucIU3ZFOXST9zZNB5+BtFKxz8FYMwhT0aQIeHfWm9pgmWeGVMjZM4cwglJmCQEM WdTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fuc1sIvEfGrvg7yH639eibypLNUfJiiWsr15IBzSub8=; b=GV848V3ZoHHPi50Hvcv+g19fdeOZWwAlhNVh2B2DV+hGaOnrSqPu0SUo69AyYHWh9G hU68IL5YEBSXI8LP3uheXykCzfjbZYRnStTfSk+q91V3D5jwPyEW4xLEOycbdzS+gImc dmKUNEtOMDJ94SiFPOnlqRFLCesWP07vE+ObSRSAvIT/KgpgY4ruuutex3EtWh7cwwJC alFI/HjvqfrCpH8q1udZLzH6ZxSGuHmpKQ/o0DKw8GOvgU6EgALTdFqbFGwBSk0oSoOR uY5HjXOcalZYpnYgrEgkYAdp9ryPfzRqMXhc8k3VcxEusd8YEYUH1vy7l6lXU22wdxHY CzXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322HbYRmR4jk1I1QNx7Vo8PbsjznvSlQh+h0OYaIBbieNIDOeRR QvF6eTijhgtafqELrZ0eagVC7MowBik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8AwTUvafSICet5P6OhxXk7xCLTVMOXQeNpKiQMKnnOUDZgCJOy5m5bw7OS32H/y2AsWd1cw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6548:: with SMTP id z8mr9177522wrv.116.1619349176153; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b128sm3002940wmh.42.2021.04.25.04.12.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:12:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x429.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268368 Archived-At: On 25.04.2021 02:48, Stefan Kangas wrote: > The easiest way of fixing it is to change the separator to "\s\t" > instead of just "\t". It would be slightly less clean I guess, but > since the screen is modal I suppose most people will never notice the > difference. WDYT? Sure. I don't see a downside. >> - Not a regression, old problem: >> >> Instructions say "Type ..., or SPC or DEL to scroll". >> >> But DEL here is actually . If I just press Delete on the >> keyboard, help-for-help exits instead of scrolling. >> >> And the target audience of help-for-help is probably at least as >> ignorant as myself about the difference between DEL and Delete. > > As you say, this is an old problem. For example `C-h k ' > here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from > )". I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other > than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace". > > I would prefer that would just be printed as such, > everywhere. I'm guessing there are historical reasons for why this > isn't already the case. It would be great if we could fix this. It's an implementation detail which leaks from the terminal keyboard support, which only supports a reduced set of keys. IIUC, DEL is an ASCII code which backspace translates to on the terminal. You can also input it in a different way, e.g. by pressing C-? (on a terminal). In a graphical frame, there is also event which Emacs translates to DEL by default, but one can set different binding for it, even though that's inadvisable. To sum up, there is a technical complexity to that problem, not just "old timers will hate change", so I'd leave that to a separate discussion, at least. With related /RET and /TAB distinctions that Eli mentioned as well, which have caused their share of problems too.