unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help'
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:12:53 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4d53a371-2976-a861-e2e4-403ce64a4576@yandex.ru> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnLjDx0D7eSFJNBcx89eczDaSn1XdmYe0QoyOF137dpPA@mail.gmail.com>

On 25.04.2021 02:48, Stefan Kangas wrote:

> The easiest way of fixing it is to change the separator to "\s\t"
> instead of just "\t".  It would be slightly less clean I guess, but
> since the screen is modal I suppose most people will never notice the
> difference.  WDYT?

Sure. I don't see a downside.

>> - Not a regression, old problem:
>>
>> Instructions say "Type ..., or SPC or DEL to scroll".
>>
>> But DEL here is actually <backspace>. If I just press Delete on the
>> keyboard, help-for-help exits instead of scrolling.
>>
>> And the target audience of help-for-help is probably at least as
>> ignorant as myself about the difference between DEL and Delete.
> 
> As you say, this is an old problem.  For example `C-h k <backspace>'
> here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from
> <backspace>)".  I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other
> than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace".
> 
> I would prefer that <backspace> would just be printed as such,
> everywhere.  I'm guessing there are historical reasons for why this
> isn't already the case.  It would be great if we could fix this.

It's an implementation detail which leaks from the terminal keyboard 
support, which only supports a reduced set of keys.

IIUC, DEL is an ASCII code which backspace translates to on the 
terminal. You can also input it in a different way, e.g. by pressing C-? 
(on a terminal).

In a graphical frame, there is also <backspace> event which Emacs 
translates to DEL by default, but one can set different binding for it, 
even though that's inadvisable.

To sum up, there is a technical complexity to that problem, not just 
"old timers will hate change", so I'd leave that to a separate 
discussion, at least. With related <return>/RET and <tab>/TAB 
distinctions that Eli mentioned as well, which have caused their share 
of problems too.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-04-25 11:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 188+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-02-21 12:06 Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 16:46 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:31   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 18:17     ` Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:42 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-21 18:18   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 19:49   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24  1:40   ` Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24  2:24     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-24  4:44       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 22:01         ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25  1:25           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25  6:43             ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 15:06               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:22               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:00     ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-24 16:35       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 19:09         ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-25  2:11           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-24 16:46     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25  2:26       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:28         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:45           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 18:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 18:48               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 19:11                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 19:47                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 20:32                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-04  6:24                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-04 14:00                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 16:18                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 17:07                             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-05 17:58                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 16:44                                 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-06 17:04                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:39                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-03-05 18:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 19:28                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:15                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 20:39                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:52                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 21:43                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06  7:33                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-06 16:25                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:32                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 18:28                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07  3:03                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07  6:45                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07  7:26                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07  7:42                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-08  9:17                                               ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-08 11:10                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10  1:38                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 17:16                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:35                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 19:50                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:59                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11  0:46                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  3:09                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11  6:25                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 13:25                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 13:59                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:11                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  6:05                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:27                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-13 15:16                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 15:59                                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  0:45                                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15  9:19                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-16  2:37                                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-16 23:20                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-08 15:39                                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-08 16:40                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43                                                     ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-09  7:38                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-09  9:05                                                         ` Juri Linkov
2021-02-25 19:14                 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 19:44             ` martin rudalics
2021-02-24 16:51     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25  1:56       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:24         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 17:45 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 18:20   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 18:48   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:19     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 20:04       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 20:16         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 23:27           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 16:12             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 16:26     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-14  2:37       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:05       ` Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:53         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15  1:54           ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:18       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 16:10         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 22:54           ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08  7:15             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 12:57               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:35           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:50             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:27               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 15:34                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:16                   ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 22:52                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09  6:23                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 14:08             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 14:50               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 15:02                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:15                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:45                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:55             ` Howard Melman
2021-04-09 15:42               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 18:48             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:23               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 23:35                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:41                   ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 16:42         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:33         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:50           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 22:56           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:26             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 12:42               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 19:55         ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-24 13:21         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-24 13:27           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-24 16:44           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 23:48             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25  7:26               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25  9:30                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 10:25                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:49                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:14                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:26                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 10:20                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 10:38                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 10:46                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:23                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:18                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:28                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:39                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-30 20:02                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 20:36                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-30 22:09                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-02 10:23                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-05-02 18:57                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:34                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:47                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:05                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:09                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:22                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 16:30                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:16                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:24                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:32                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:44                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:58                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 11:12               ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2021-04-25 15:47               ` DEL vs Backspace (was: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help') Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 16:49                 ` DEL vs Backspace Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 17:25                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 17:50                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26  0:45                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-26 11:45                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-26 11:48                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26  4:41                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-04-27 20:56               ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-04-27 23:15                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 17:18           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-24 20:32             ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-25 10:00             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 17:56       ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 18:21         ` John Yates
2021-04-07 22:56           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 22:41         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:15           ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 12:57             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:27 ` Howard Melman
2021-02-22 15:25   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 10:01 ` Yuri Khan
2021-02-22 15:25   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:11     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:34       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 18:43         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 14:06   ` Dmitry Gutov

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=4d53a371-2976-a861-e2e4-403ce64a4576@yandex.ru \
    --to=dgutov@yandex.ru \
    --cc=eliz@gnu.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=stefan@marxist.se \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).