From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help'
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:12:53 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4d53a371-2976-a861-e2e4-403ce64a4576@yandex.ru> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnLjDx0D7eSFJNBcx89eczDaSn1XdmYe0QoyOF137dpPA@mail.gmail.com>
On 25.04.2021 02:48, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> The easiest way of fixing it is to change the separator to "\s\t"
> instead of just "\t". It would be slightly less clean I guess, but
> since the screen is modal I suppose most people will never notice the
> difference. WDYT?
Sure. I don't see a downside.
>> - Not a regression, old problem:
>>
>> Instructions say "Type ..., or SPC or DEL to scroll".
>>
>> But DEL here is actually <backspace>. If I just press Delete on the
>> keyboard, help-for-help exits instead of scrolling.
>>
>> And the target audience of help-for-help is probably at least as
>> ignorant as myself about the difference between DEL and Delete.
>
> As you say, this is an old problem. For example `C-h k <backspace>'
> here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from
> <backspace>)". I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other
> than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace".
>
> I would prefer that <backspace> would just be printed as such,
> everywhere. I'm guessing there are historical reasons for why this
> isn't already the case. It would be great if we could fix this.
It's an implementation detail which leaks from the terminal keyboard
support, which only supports a reduced set of keys.
IIUC, DEL is an ASCII code which backspace translates to on the
terminal. You can also input it in a different way, e.g. by pressing C-?
(on a terminal).
In a graphical frame, there is also <backspace> event which Emacs
translates to DEL by default, but one can set different binding for it,
even though that's inadvisable.
To sum up, there is a technical complexity to that problem, not just
"old timers will hate change", so I'd leave that to a separate
discussion, at least. With related <return>/RET and <tab>/TAB
distinctions that Eli mentioned as well, which have caused their share
of problems too.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-25 11:12 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 188+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-02-21 12:06 Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 16:46 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:31 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 18:17 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:42 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-21 18:18 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 19:49 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 1:40 ` Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 2:24 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-24 4:44 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 22:01 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 1:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 6:43 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 15:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:22 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:00 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-24 16:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 19:09 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-25 2:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:29 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-24 16:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 2:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 18:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 18:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 19:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 19:47 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 20:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-04 6:24 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-04 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 16:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 17:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-05 17:58 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 16:44 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-06 17:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:39 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-05 18:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 19:28 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 20:39 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 21:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 7:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-06 16:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 18:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07 3:03 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07 6:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07 7:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07 7:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-08 9:17 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-08 11:10 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 1:38 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 17:16 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 19:50 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 0:46 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 3:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 13:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 13:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 6:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-13 15:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 15:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 0:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15 9:19 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-16 2:37 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-16 23:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-08 15:39 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-08 16:40 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-09 7:38 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-09 9:05 ` Juri Linkov
2021-02-25 19:14 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 19:44 ` martin rudalics
2021-02-24 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 1:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 17:45 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 18:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 18:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 20:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 20:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 23:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 16:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 16:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-14 2:37 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:05 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:53 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15 1:54 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 16:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 22:54 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 12:57 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 15:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:16 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 22:52 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09 6:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 14:08 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 14:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 15:02 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:55 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-09 15:42 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 18:48 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 23:35 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:41 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 16:42 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:33 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:50 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 22:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:26 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 12:42 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 19:55 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-24 13:21 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-24 13:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-24 16:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 23:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 9:30 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 10:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:49 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:26 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 10:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 10:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:39 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-30 20:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 20:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-30 22:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-02 10:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-05-02 18:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:34 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:47 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:22 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 16:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:16 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:32 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 11:12 ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2021-04-25 15:47 ` DEL vs Backspace (was: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help') Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 16:49 ` DEL vs Backspace Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 17:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26 0:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-26 11:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-26 11:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26 4:41 ` Richard Stallman
2021-04-27 20:56 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-04-27 23:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 17:18 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-24 20:32 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-25 10:00 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 17:56 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 18:21 ` John Yates
2021-04-07 22:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 22:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:15 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 12:57 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:27 ` Howard Melman
2021-02-22 15:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 10:01 ` Yuri Khan
2021-02-22 15:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 18:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 14:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
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