From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4b110719-a5e9-447a-90d1-129f2e871745@default> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <32292E31-1603-4EF9-B772-EBD378C32F76@gmail.com> <83o8mcfjxb.fsf@gnu.org> <83een8fi2u.fsf@gnu.org> <83blicfh1l.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2974"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings , Eli Zaretskii , casouri@gmail.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 21:00:54 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGoI2-0000iB-7p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/11 14:29:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255228 Archived-At: [Was bitten by the Reply All misses emacs-devel thing again...] >> But the tutorial is not just about keybindings. It explains a lot of=20 >> other turf, mainly the important concepts: buffer, window, mode line,=20 >> etc. > > A new user does not need to understand those subtleties. See below. You seemed earlier to say that such things as the mode-line are essential for a new user to understand. > >> They are indeed, I'm not denying this. My point of view here is: what > >> are the most essential things that a user needs to know to use Emacs i= f > >> we have no more than three minutes? Clearly (at least to me) it is > >> possible to use Emacs without knowing what a "buffer" or a "window" is= . > > > > How would they even understand the doc strings without knowing what's a > > buffer and what's a window? We have the Glossary section in the manual= , > > for that very reason. >=20 > Again my point of view is: what are the most essential things that a user > needs to know to use Emacs if we have no more than three minutes? The > point is to create a minimal configuration wizard / guided tour to > introduce them to the most essential things and help them to create a > minimal configuration with which they would feel "at home", instead of > having the "this is weird" feeling. The "most essential things" are not cursor movements. The arrow keys, familiar to all, suffice for that, to begin with. > You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would > a user who just started using Emacs read doc strings? The most essential thing, if you really expect something in less than 3 minutes, is _how to ask Emacs_, so that you can learn more when you need/want to. And yes, that starts with help commands, which means doc strings. C-h C-h, if nothing else. Then C-h k, C-h m, C-h v, C-h f, C-h i,... And you, yourself, said something similar earlier: > And I still think that a short "guided tour" would be > useful at the end: what/where is the minibuffer and > what is its purpose, what does the=20 > mode-line contain, how to find help (here I would list > C-h m, C-h p, C-h k / C-h w / C-h a, C-h l, C-h ?), ... And there you also seem to support what Eli says about the need to introduce fundamental concepts - Emacs things. You mention the minibuffer and the mode-line. He mentions buffers, windows, etc. ALL of that is needed: basic Emacs thingies + how to ask Emacs.