From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 06:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4a161cb8-5ab8-471b-805a-77f37d2ac83f@default> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> <770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default> <20180910181615.GA4829@ACM> <874lev3bq4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180912131602.GA5582@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536759653 6473 195.159.176.226 (12 Sep 2018 13:40:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:40:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, Joost Kremers , Noam Postavsky , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Alan Mackenzie , hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 12 15:40:48 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g05Nv-0001Xm-AZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:40:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36345 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g05Q1-0007Pd-Kj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:42:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46401) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g05P6-0007PV-C0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g05P5-0007bU-Cm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:42:00 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:53876) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g05P1-0007ZE-Hc; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:41:55 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w8CDcbSg071951; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:41:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=TpKxgBC98ktwQ+widKGycRg26Tlp5KVkvO+ql5XM/e4=; b=vG5I5DuecoekhgI3rwjAfylMJtty6CxBVT8+FNj/NfFHzU+/jrJ3GqGjTsZNn97iKrvy VjksMoMA5tT9G91htTWTzVTB+rK7hfA9GWbH/a0ydwXN3fuK96dMOZJPy/vQbHre1bvp +sVCbCIUjlxWrY4E1AaP7xPLTEeIaHUfzNgrZk4/gyET9b6YjVTuLdiq7xRGFM24pphL vgBEoSMuseusKWhxULeNuvNwWga6Ul7HfQE+6W10zuRHNUjN7avYEJU5z4a7SFTs3NwM rssVaGcwZNzFzMpd7ndrerAYTaA83nz1FOhi9aBmyiHpJBXQxO1kuuGWqFooAtopVvnG xg== Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mc6cpt5xw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:41:47 +0000 Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w8CDfjQc005333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:41:46 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w8CDfi96021447; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:41:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <20180912131602.GA5582@ACM> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9013 signatures=668708 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1809120142 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.78 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229702 Archived-At: > > Currently even when a region is not active (it is a hidden region > > because it is not highlighted), you can do something with it, so users > > always get an "active" region even when they don't want one. It's only > > a bit less active than it is when it is highlighted. >=20 > As I've pointed out several times in the distant past, the terminology > used for things in this part of Emacs is thoroughly suboptimal. A region > is never "active"; it never does anything, it is never an agent. For > example. OK. Perhaps a better term for it would have been "activated", not "active". And yes, a region is always activated (or enabled or able to be acted) on, in multiple ways. Someone picked a term for a region being activated for certain kinds of action. Some term for what is meant by that is useful - some term beyond just "highlighted" or "selected". "Active region" is OK, I think. Anyway, it's what we've been using, and I don't think it's awfully confusing, even if it can be a bit misleading. > One of the uses of C-x C-x is to check what is currently in the region. > Typically, you'd type it twice, to get back to your starting point. More exactly, one of the uses of C-x C-x _highlighting_ is that. You want a visual indication of the limits of the region, and perhaps of all of its contents. The other thing that C-x C-x does is activate the region, and in your case you do not need/want that. > There are many advantages to having transient-mark-mode disabled: > primarily simplicity, and the severe reduction in the modal behaviour (in > the sense of key sequences doing different things in things like vi's > insert mode and command mode). And I'm not happy having my font-locking > splatted by the region's highlighting. Being able to apply some actions to the region (or being unable to do so) is just a thing. It can be limiting, as you suggest. But it can also be handy - depending on the user and what s?he wants to do. Just as `delete-selection-mode' provides essentially an implicit C-w, which can be either a convenience or a bother, depending, so can isolating the region for acting on it, but just highlighting it instead of narrowing to it (so you can still see the surrounding context) be either a convenience or a bother, depending. I like to have (and use) both, at different times: (1) narrowing to the region to act on it and (2) activating the region to act on it. My `isearch+.el' lets me limit Isearch to the active region, for instance, but still see the surrounding context. Do I always use that, instead of narrowing and then searching? No. I do both, at different times. I like having the option to do either. > But everybody's different here, with different preferences, likes, hates. > It's a mistake (which I've made quite a few times) to assume that > "obvious" options in Emacs actually are obvious. 100% agreement on that. And the preferences of the same user can even change over time and as new possibilities arise.