From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Adrien Brochard Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 19:12:23 -0400 Message-ID: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> References: <30addebe-999b-c1cc-a8d8-27aba3fac566@gmx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12377"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 01:16:44 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kR1cy-00036h-NF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2020 01:16:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40630 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kR1cx-0004ks-CQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 19:16:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35016) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kR1Yu-00048d-IT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 19:12:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:43231) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kR1Yr-0003Rw-OT; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 19:12:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1602285146; bh=HSrVgz6yS8ayezf27mWktGVY61K8S0xWPcv7y6+oeMg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QeRusmg4l88boizrLGeeNGw9tYFlBZN8+6nV2BH2694R6khX5cNGluRFwoKKuepMy OqdkisgAubWfc52NsGaUh/TIp+HSc9eSbQ1d23ZUMSVUB9P/phc90Cj6EcgUikbIyh kXwADFjIXo0TQN9XgX9AKOSwyjOmIgjDvvSMAc1c= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from Adriens-MacBook-Pro.local ([3.93.254.153]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MmlTC-1k26961RgM-00juHH; Sat, 10 Oct 2020 01:12:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gUeDhS1PNW9oF8GGaix+Ldbrebj87X4z0X6wUl9X03bEj+FrzUD 7o6R2Q1R/68LbTzwC6qNgQKfzed2MhfO3kMwMET0kwcqsy6Cb1NYpsWxlZMt9brXLE5I2Bz eaI7b4ugDQSLucyiBLg0r/BGNgywOnmH45LU3mhZ8Alq0LJ4+QjwANeregIgHovL3Y3L+cs dbt5Hw/x1onzZ90CMg2Xg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:huru5sAO5qU=:edSUopv6p8/PiB1WjsWerK DMsAYxWod2PkGXUbsaVpDm5iR/701P70KhpVZmk9AqiUV2TFtNls5tUdwLaOyXplYgpKmclo0 v8R7NuI2WONpbqRh7zJs5xthg73+yjvJA+oErY9+FCDZk8CUyHY9cylYNBEqQkFaUjq1rKnxV 0ONvGKH2HE4hRqc+Pe2IsYkXJj27STEb0//bnzEKW3zwJws+UsrKAFL0QBYPQjSULyhp+JiOg w105yxf0sAz0Gn4ydagk+ITcm9c1SRWodztkeq1l0Rt9Vx4UqPKP+uBDmrt1rXw3VYsX+y9ia 6Vt3HXYExtT4MqGeKqwh6qFd1EDzfqXqYb9cIQJFSJqFBj077v3ZGishkvEPTeiFEz1dRsIGZ TN7I6N64T6iLJtnZl+DVoddyuzuU1igWjDvQH19zn85Z+ujUHwEfwINo9vJ2thB/C4RXNY1Ec rPb/vZnzeRi4tFJYUMMU9GzQxy9PsX8PVLz1Aoti94yh8ZYrgE/mil9gQj5MSRKrN4DB+gXQa YkDm9RxT1NUVjrV1E7nCqxp4TQiOs0od+FwWONQQkOCcCfW2jbCptjTyXyOSdPay7jI3jWZoO xACWc5TGbgVwTKbK7ZgAkoiiQUwOMXlzrOrZGRcL+LT9aTxtW2uWRFUnARYMkezAX+w2o/1tD yS+rGEkFVOAXJHZlzwNAQ18iCtHDvGaCa5st9r/oPlDgBAvgm8frWWbg0DBAbrOtyA6kBMYQ0 e5eHcbcKA3A/80w2WV7Vdc+cYsp9xoBYiGirWmWZT/5tBW85HorqgONUDXWsolQrR1hYE8rw Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.22; envelope-from=abrochard@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/09 19:12:27 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.208, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257287 Archived-At: Thank you for your response. Please find the list of questions I have gathered at the end of this email. > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I think using Google to communicate the users is bad because Google > does so many bad things. We should not endorse it with our actions. > > In addition, most Google services require users to run nonfree > software (Javascript code). If answering our questions requires the > user to run some nonfree JS code, that would put us in a moral > contradiction. > > Our goal is much more than just developing a successful editor; GNU > Emacs is a GNU package, and the purpose of the GNU operating system is > to win freedom for the users. We have to set an example of respecting > and defending freedom in the methods we use, not just the program we > are working on. See https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and > https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html. > > I think Reddit is the wrong place to discuss this plan, for a similar > reason. As I understand it, Reddit requires nonfree software to post > on Reddit nowadays. Is that not so? I understand the position. My primary concern though is that without some convenience, it is difficult to convince a lot of people to respond. Which is why I am proposing two channels: an a dedicated email address that will accept plain text responses (at the risk of data quality), and an online form. That plain text form to be email can be hosted on a static site that people can access from Emacs itself. > If possible, we should tell users how to select various behaviors, so > that they can state their opinions based on comparing actual > experiences. > > End the inquiry statement with the following text. > > We do not seek "votes", but rather understanding. If you are for > the change, please explain why. Would it help you directly? If > so, in what scenarios? How often, and how strongly, would it > benefit you? What would the benefit be? > > Or is it that you think it will improve Emacs, or speed Emacs > development, by helping other users? How so? > > Please distinguish between what you know and what you predict. > > Likewise, if you are against the change, please explain why. > Would it inconvenience you directly? If so, in what scenarios? > How often, and how strongly, would it inconvenience you? What > would the inconvenience be? > > Or is it that you think it will harm Emacs or Emacs development by > inconveniencing others? How so? > > We invite you also to propose alterations in the proposed change th= at > you think would improve it -- saying in what scenario that would be= an > improvement, and how so, etc. > > Please post the URL of this page in forums where it is appropriate, > and resend it to Emacs users and mailing lists where you know peopl= e > will be glad to receive it. > > It is crucial to urge people repeatedly to explain their positions > because there is a strong tendency for people not to bother. I am all in favor of this. Thank you for putting it together. Let me know if you think the wording is still coherent given the questions. > * Put the inquiry statement in a web page under gnu.org/software/emacs. > > * Mail the inquiry statement info-gnu-emacs, help-gnu-emacs and > emacs-tangents, with the URL of the web page _and_ the full text > of the inquiry statement. > > Also post a note referring to the web page on reddit.com/r/emacs, and > any other suitable places. Mail the URL to Sacha Chua > . > > * Wait until at least two weeks after the deadline, then study and > record the responses. Note down all interesting comments, since they > are the most important information in the responses. Yes to all of that. > * Do count how many people support each position that people support, > but it would be a mistake to make the actual decision based simply on > counting. A given change can affect one user very often, and affect > another user only rarely, but they could both state a "strong > preference". > > * We are not compelled to choose between "make that change" and "no > change". The best outcome of the inquiry is that the responses show > us how to design a way to please almost all users, almost all the > time, and not displease any user very much. I also agree with this. I think no matter what we are going to get selection bias and we should not rush any decision based on the survey results. * Survey Questions (Please note that any "other" should allow for free text entry for the respondent to elaborate) ** How would you characterize your use of Emacs? - Use it for work - I use it for serious "hobby" projects - I'm just tinkering - I use it for my studies - Other ** What do you use Emacs for? - Software development - Research writing - Data science - Writing - Other ** How long have you been using Emacs? ** Which version of Emacs do you use? ** What OS do you primary use? - Linux - Windows - MacOS - BSD - Other ** How do you use Emacs? - GUI - Terminal (TUI) - Both ** How do you run Emacs? - Client/Server mode only - Standalone application only - Both ** Describe your configuration - I am using vanilla emacs (little to no configuration). - Custom configuration - Spacemacs - https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs - Doom Emacs - https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs - Prelude - https://github.com/bbatsov/prelude - purcell emacs.d - https://github.com/purcell/emacs.d - magnars emacs.d - https://github.com/magnars/.emacs.d - Emacs Starter Kit - https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-starter-kit - oh-my-emacs - https://github.com/xiaohanyu/oh-my-emacs - Better Defaults - https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults - Graphene - https://github.com/rdallasgray/graphene - ohai-emacs - https://github.com/bodil/ohai-emacs - ergoemacs-mode - https://github.com/ergoemacs/ergoemacs-mode - Rho Emacs - https://github.com/GChristensen/rho-emacs - Radian - https://github.com/raxod502/radian - Centaur Emacs - https://github.com/seagle0128/.emacs.d - Other ** What keybindings do you use? - Emacs defaults - Evil/Spacemacs/Doom-Emacs (all the vim-likes) - CUA-mode - God-mode - Boon - Xah-Fly-Keys - Custom modal (ryo-modal, etc) - Custom modifiers (Emacs from scratch) - Other ** Prior to using Emacs what was your primary editor? - VIM - VScode - Eclipse - Notepad++ - Sublime - Intelij - Other ** org-mode usage - I use emacs only for org-mode - dayly - from time to time - Not a org-mode user ** Which completion/selection framework do you use? - helm - ivy - ido - icomplete - other - i don't use a completion framework ** How do you manage third-party elisp? - built-in package.el - Spacemacs does it for me - straight.el - borg - leaf - el-get - Nix - git submodules without Borg - git subtrees - git clones - guix - quelpa - cask - No third-party deps - other ** How do you get emacs packages(if applicable)? - No repos - Gnu Elpa - Melpa/Melpa Stable - Directly from the source (e. g. using straight). ** Can you list some of your favorite package? ** What package do you use for error checking? - Flymake - Flycheck - None ** Do you use TRAMP? ** DO you use Magit? ** What package do you use for project management? - project.el - projectile - Other(mention) - None ** Do you use shell/terminal emulator in Emacs? - eshell - shell - term - ansi-term - do not use. ** Do you use mail client in Emacs? - Mu4e - Gnus - Mut - notmuch - do not use ** What is your Elisp proficiency? - Beginner/No knowledge - Basic elisp understanding - Intermediate - Advanced - Expert ** If you use Emacs for programming, which languages do you program in? ** do you use a language server with lsp-mode? With what languages? ** Do you use Emacs for debugging? What do you use? (Gdb, dap-mode etc) ** Which theme do you use? ** Have you ever contributed to GNU Emacs core/Elpa? - No - No, but I would do that if the process is changed(e. g. using github pull requests instead of the mailing list, no papers, etc**. - I do PRs from time to time - I provide PRs regularly - I am active contributor/maintainer ** Have you ever contributed to Melpa package? - No - I do PRs from time to time - I provide PRs regularly - I am a package maintainer ** What Emacs community forums have you visited in the past year? Answers would be things like - r/emacs - Emacs mailing list - irc - Emacs meetups - I follow twitter Emacs related accounts - Other ** What are some of the Emacs improvements you are the most interested in? ** what do you think are Emacs' greatest strengths? ** can you recall any difficulties you faced initially learning Emacs? ** What is the one thing you would like emacs to do differently? ** How did you hear about this survey? ** If there is another survey in 2021, would you be opposed to it containing optional & general demographics questions? It could include age backets, gender, country or language ** Do you have a preferred platform for filling out the survey in the future? ** General feedback about the survey process?