From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 22:10:51 +0900 Message-ID: <4D2767FA-57D6-4A55-BA0A-D12C0E58939D@icloud.com> References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="21131"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Philippe Vaucher , Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 05 15:20:51 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVxVB-0005OG-W9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 15:20:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60956 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVxVB-0007N8-1U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 09:20:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41406) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVxLh-0006HQ-PX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 09:11:01 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztbu10021601.me.com ([17.58.6.57]:59084) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVxLg-0002yC-2p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 09:11:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1588684258; bh=pm3eibw5pJQloBqtLIAypMGWMEGeDhZoyckpoR4HKHU=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=Xkv1WS3I8/bgSAyPKlw/Ww58xYd/UCkfQLCDa8BXHyjQgrtbAjpptlqU1NAEf/a2Y qVshk2rf+7f8ZTFVqCceUX0ZMsPxaCUJF7ugAEZh+pVah3QYxsS4AwyJKiG7MqoN9z SBjep4xmOmGTTTNevRcHpiLKab8zGi0PoUYlwymZyKyq7z4IBRT0x9CrUqaiTlqyjg HTqx3TcIgoTVbA2ySmVxb/yvRjEJttdVXVHYbu7FJgtObpyJ+tEWRNwBR1QaySEAhl wabpmv63gaz5esZFCpEtkKmqEVp3gAaURPHqWp47Q5DpCd6pkjRXHoYrzniOSEDl/n I6dch3RGF0q2g== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztbu10021601.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 853806E0550; Tue, 5 May 2020 13:10:55 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-05_08:2020-05-04, 2020-05-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=527 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005050106 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.57; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztbu10021601.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/05 09:10:59 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, KHOP_DYNAMIC=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248981 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov 작성: > On 05.05.2020 13:14, João Távora wrote: >> You'll always >> get a group of people that really expected it to be multibyte-string and >> group of people that expect string-multibyte. > > If there is an actual naming standard, the people can learn. I’ve proposed here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg00671.html to create a preliminary Elisp API standard: I think some people will be interested here. Below is the full mail contents: > 조성빈 작성: > >> Philippe Vaucher 작성: >> >>>>> Given this is more or less the position held by Alan, Eli, Richard, >>>>> Drew and João I think the chances of seeing new aliases is close to 0. >>>> >>>> This is not my conclusion. I've seen several calls to move away from >>>> from discussing in the abstract to discuss specific, concrete >>>> examples. I think this is a good idea, since IMHO the abstract >>>> discussion is likely exhausted. >>>> >>>> There is always the chance that some of the proposals will be voted >>>> down. But also consider that some who have disagreed with you in the >>>> abstract might be more convinced by specific, concrete proposals. >>> >>> So far the string- proposal got shot down entirely. The regexp one was >>> initially a no-go from Alan but I then Richard kinda liked it and >>> proposed adaptations. >>> >>> @Stefan Monnier: I see that you talked about `multibyte-string-p` >>> already (and iirc that didn't went well. You talked earlier about >>> `process-`, maybe you'd like to propose some changes there? >> >> I think for people to propose changes and get them adapted, we first >> have to >> have some proper goals to target. >> >> So there are a few people here who think renaming some functions is >> beneficial >> - but everybody’s reasoning is different here. Some people who are >> opposed to >> renaming are a bit confused. >> >> I think the two big goals are consistency and discoverability. And then >> there >> are various small arguments like it’s easier to use prefix based >> completion and >> function search, it’s easier to guess, namespace means less function name >> clashing, etc… >> >> I think consistency is important, and if the language itself wants naming >> things the ‘lisp-way’, I’m fine with a consistent naming scheme. I’m not >> sure >> if you’d agree or not, but maybe trying to find a consistent naming >> scheme and >> documenting them (which was called as the ‘lisp-way’ by some) might be >> first. >> And then we can rename the ones that don’t follow them. >> >>> I mean I'm willing to propose concrete changes but if it's not obvious >>> for string- and regexp- why would it be for other topics? Let's try >>> another topic just to see: >>> >>> rename-file -> file-rename >>> delete-file -> file-delete >>> copy-file -> file-copy >>> expand-file-name -> file-expand-name >>> >>> Do you think people will be ok with that? >> >> The reason why I said about finding the naming scheme was because both the >> function name rename-file and file-truename makes sense to me. >> >> I think some preliminary conventions that Elisp already follows is that >> the >> - scheme is for actions on the object like rename-file or >> clear-string, and - scheme is for getting properties >> of the >> object like string-width and file-name-extension. (I’m not considering >> polymorphic ones.) >> >> But then there are exceptions, like string-trim (which should then be >> trim-string) or string-join (which should then be join-string). >> >> What does everybody think about this? I think it would be less >> disruptive and >> controversial if some Elisp core API guidelines are decided, written, and >> followed in the future. Then, if it turns out it’s useful enough, we can >> start >> aliasing functions that don’t follow them to names that do follow them (if >> it’s desirable to do so.) > > I’ve CCed some Elisp users that I think would have some knowledge and > opinions > about this - can people dial in and codify the ‘lisp-way’ or the > ‘elisp-way’ > so that we can have some starting point of the API guidelines? > > (If someone is opposed to making an API guideline, can somebody explain the > reasons too?)