Re: Return

Re: Return

[MON KEY]

,----
| Note that Python (at least) has adopted this approach, with a core
| language definition that is 99% or so independent of implementation
| (cf. CPython, Cython nee pyrex, Stackless Python, Jython, IronPython,
| and PyPy).
`----

Pshaw... Doesn't GVR eschew ++Lambda++ in p3k? Heresy!

,----
| Speaking of Common Lisp, since it has a package scheme, you might be
| able to implement the elisp interpreter by using the elisp
| interpreter, and put in in a package that uses elisp eval instead of
| Common Lisp's eval.
`----

Sam Steingold has explored this in the CLOCC.

There is also LICE.

Pretty sure Closure has an "Emacs like" editor for Mac environs.

PJB maintains quite a bit of Elisp<-->Common-Lisp code.

FWIW I've been collecting various bits and pieces from the above mentioned
sources into a personal package for the last ~6 months.

I'm sure many Common Lispers do similarly.

Also, as mentioned there is Climacs which is quite functional with McClim/CLX.

Likewise, there is Hemlock. (AIUI someone is currently porting it to Qt...)

Also, there are any number of legacy "Emacs like" editors from the
Lispm/TI/Symbolics/BBN/Xerox... implementations. Source is generally available
for all of these.

Contemporary commercial sources like Lispworks and Allegro provide "Emacs like"
editors.

Given Emacs' Maclisp lineage and the number of Lisp2 users whom actively use
GNU/Xemacs (or some equivalent) and the presence of a formal Common Lisp
specification implemented on myriad platforms and multiple
implementations of said
specification, why on earth should a switch to either a Scheme/Python VM warrant
consideration.

FWIW I find it quite odd that discussions of moving the Emacs VM to
Guile are bandied
about when Clisp is available as a GNU project (since forever), has an existing
C interface, is easily as portable across platformas as Guile scheme, counts
among its core authors a formidable contributor to various high-level
GNU projects
(Bruno Haible) and has the admirable quality that it doesn't get confused
between nil/empty-list/falsehood in the way that a Scheme will.

--
/s_P\

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

MON KEY writes:
 > ,----
 > | Note that Python (at least) has adopted this approach, with a core
 > | language definition that is 99% or so independent of implementation
 > | (cf. CPython, Cython nee pyrex, Stackless Python, Jython, IronPython,
 > | and PyPy).
 > `----
 > 
 > Pshaw... Doesn't GVR eschew ++Lambda++ in p3k? Heresy!

No, YAGNI.  Even more so in Emacs Lisp:

(defmacro lambda (&rest forms) `(defun ,(gensym) ,@forms))

or something like that. ;-)

 > ,----
 > | Speaking of Common Lisp, since it has a package scheme, you might be
 > | able to implement the elisp interpreter by using the elisp
 > | interpreter, and put in in a package that uses elisp eval instead of
 > | Common Lisp's eval.
 > `----
 > 
 > Sam Steingold has explored [...]

I'll take a look.  But ...

 > Also, there are any number of legacy "Emacs like" editors

Indeed.  For unacceptably small values of "like", though.  AFAIK the
people you would expect to actually be working on those things (eg,
you mention Bruno Haible as well as Sam Steingold) use "real" Emacs
instead for production work.  I wonder why? ;-)

 > why on earth should a switch to either a Scheme/Python VM warrant
 > consideration.

I'm not suggesting switching to the Python VM, I'm proposing Python as
an example of a language with several implementations targeting
multiple VMs.  The reason for using a Scheme is that it's much lighter
weight than a Common Lisp implementation.  That may not butter your
bread, but it matters to Richard, I believe, and to the people who
work on those implementations.

 > FWIW I find it quite odd that discussions of moving the Emacs VM to
 > Guile are bandied about

"Bandied about" is quite the odd term to use for a decision that AIUI
was made more than a decade ago.  Emacs just has a long gestation
period for features. :-)

Re: Return

[MON KEY]

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
 >
 > Pshaw... Doesn't GVR eschew ++Lambda++ in p3k? Heresy!

,----
| No, YAGNI.  Even more so in Emacs Lisp:
`----

Indeed, one often doesn't miss what one never knew wasn't there to be missed.
GVM has no doubt leveraged this against future Python initiates.

Fortunately a good many lispers are too accustomed w/ lambda by virtue of
defmacro and Lisp's terse parenthetical syntax to not miss it.

,----
| (defmacro lambda (&rest forms) `(defun ,(gensym) ,@forms))
|
| or something like that. ;-)
`----

Perhaps, but quite a bit more happens at compile time around lambda and will do
more so if/when the lexbind is merged. :)

 > ,----
 > | Speaking of Common Lisp, since it has a package scheme, you might be
 > | able to implement the elisp interpreter by using the elisp
 > | interpreter, and put in in a package that uses elisp eval instead of
 > | Common Lisp's eval.
 > `----
 >
 > Sam Steingold has explored [...]

,----
| I'll take a look.  But ...
`----

FWIW I've found the old LispM sources to be the most enlightening.

 > Also, there are any number of legacy "Emacs like" editors

,----
| Indeed.  For unacceptably small values of "like", though.
|
| AFAIK the people you would expect to actually be working on those things (eg,
| you mention Bruno Haible as well as Sam Steingold) use "real" Emacs
| instead for production work.  I wonder why? ;-)
`----

I've no idea why either of those individuals might do what they do.

What would be interesting to learn is whether there is any will for a formal
incorporation of the C in Clisp w/ the E in elisp?

I imagine there are still a good many Common Lisp hacks that would contribute
their valuable skills to such an effort were it not for the closed/proprietary
control maintained on the FSF Emacs source tree.

Regardless, the "real" Emacsen we are using today are not fundamentally so far
removed from the legacy CLTL based systems they were once built upon that we can
describe the contemporary Emacsen as somehow more "real" than its ancestor.

Indeed, as you have framed it, mine was a comparison of Emacs to TECO. I would
offer that the situation may be inverted, and that in many ways todays Emacsen
are the TECOs to a certain breed of ancestral Emacsen.  No doubt you're well
aware of the lineage ;-)

Indeed, when browsing through the LispM sources it is quite surprising to learn
how much of the underlying Emacs VM (now C based) was once CLTL based. In some
cases one can still catch glimpes of entire blocks of text which nearly
superimpose one another (syntax differences aside)...

 > why on earth should a switch to either a Scheme/Python VM warrant
 > consideration.

,----
| I'm not suggesting switching to the Python VM, I'm proposing Python as
| an example of a language with several implementations targeting
| multiple VMs.
`----

Great! I misunderstood.

,----
| The reason for using a Scheme is that it's much lighter
| weight than a Common Lisp implementation.
`----

This is an awfully general assertion.
Which Scheme implementation?
Which Scheme with which R[456]RS?
And for any given implementation, which shared/linked libraries are required?
Which CL implementation?

,----
| That may not butter your bread, but it matters to Richard, I believe, and to
| the people who work on those implementations.
`----

Butter aside, it isn't at all clear what the matter that matters is and to and
for whom.

 > FWIW I find it quite odd that discussions of moving the Emacs VM to
 > Guile are bandied about

,----
| "Bandied about" is quite the odd term to use for a decision that AIUI
| was made more than a decade ago.
`----

Which decision, the decision to fork Emacs' CLTL code base from the LispM or the
decision that Guile might eventually grow into its shoes enough to become a
worthy consideration as the Emacs scripting engine?

,----
| Emacs just has a long gestation period for features. :-)
`----

And enough hubris to squelch many such features which should never have been
removed during the initial LispM fork 25+ yrs ago.

--
/s_P\

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

MON KEY writes:

 > Indeed, one often doesn't miss what one never knew wasn't there to be missed.
 > GVM has no doubt leveraged this against future Python initiates.

Not at all.  Python is intended to have functional programming
features, but it's also intended to primarily be an imperative
language, not a functional language.  GvR is well aware of the uses of
lambda and there are a lot of fans of lambda (as well as of "first-
class anonymous blocks" which may or may not be the same as lambdas)
among Pythonistas.  He just doesn't think such features belong in
Python, and I have to admit I don't miss them.

 > ,----
 > | (defmacro lambda (&rest forms) `(defun ,(gensym) ,@forms))
 > |
 > | or something like that. ;-)
 > `----
 > 
 > Perhaps, but quite a bit more happens at compile time around lambda and will do
 > more so if/when the lexbind is merged. :)

That was a wink because of course I'm cheating like hell: in a typical
interpreted Lisp, defun is just a feature-creepy way of associating a
lambda with a name (aka symbol), and my macro is an inefficient way of
creating an anonymous function.  IOW, no, nothing special happens at
compile time and no, lexbind won't change that.  Any semantic changes
that happen to lambda will happen to defun and vice versa.

 > What would be interesting to learn is whether there is any will for a formal
 > incorporation of the C in Clisp w/ the E in elisp?

Hrvoje Niksic and Martin Buchholz advocated a Common Lisp as the
appropriate way to evolve elisp, and IIRC Erik Naggum was in that camp
too.  But they've all long since left the development community.  I
think most of the people with an interest in it are either hacking
elisp directly (like Miles) or are Schemers (like Mike "R6RS"
Sperber).

 > the closed/proprietary control maintained on the FSF Emacs source
 > tree.

Hardly closed *or* proprietary.  Remember XEmacs in your prayers, and
rest assured that any work you do on Emacs remains free for others to
use, whether GNU chooses to distribute it or not.  If they choose not,
you can always do it yourself, as we do.

But ... I wouldn't bet that you'll have more luck peddling your warez
at xemacs.org or sxemacs.org for that matter.  That's the nature of a
distribution, that somebody decides what to distribute.  Typically by
rejecting your proposals, c'est la vie. :-)

Re: Return

[David Kastrup]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

> MON KEY writes:
>
>  > Indeed, one often doesn't miss what one never knew wasn't there to
>  > be missed.
>  > GVM has no doubt leveraged this against future Python initiates.
>
> Not at all.  Python is intended to have functional programming
> features, but it's also intended to primarily be an imperative
> language, not a functional language.

If you take a look at Elisp programs, you'll notice that in practice it
is primarily used as an imperative language, not a functional language
(that is: the focus is on executing actions, not on constructing
values).  It doesn't really help that the fundamental data structure,
the list, is not an abstract data type but realised via a rather
low-level pointer to a statically allocated pair of user-accessible
values, cutting right through the idea of "functional programming" where
the output is a mathematic function/transformation of the input.

Lisp does not have separate syntaxes for imperative execution and
expressions (and things like the C dichotomy of if/else/?: are somewhat
ugly, especially considering that expressions count as statements if you
tack a semicolon on).  But particularly the Emacs code base is not all
that "functional".

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

> If you take a look at Elisp programs, you'll notice that in practice it
> is primarily used as an imperative language, not a functional language
> (that is: the focus is on executing actions, not on constructing
> values).  It doesn't really help that the fundamental data structure,
> the list, is not an abstract data type but realised via a rather
> low-level pointer to a statically allocated pair of user-accessible
> values, cutting right through the idea of "functional programming" where
> the output is a mathematic function/transformation of the input.

Actually, I think that the cons cells are relatively harmless in this
regard (setcar/setcdr are not used that often, tho maybe slightly more
so via delq and friends) compared to the blow incurred by the
inefficiency of Elisp recursion.


        Stefan

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

> creating an anonymous function.  IOW, no, nothing special happens at
> compile time and no, lexbind won't change that.  Any semantic changes
> that happen to lambda will happen to defun and vice versa.

;-)

Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
the cases (in Elisp).


        Stefan

Re: Return

[Chong Yidong]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
> the cases (in Elisp).

There are quite a number of packages, many external to Emacs, that use
non-top-level defuns for compatibility functions.

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>> the cases (in Elisp).

> There are quite a number of packages, many external to Emacs, that use
> non-top-level defuns for compatibility functions.

But as long as they don't use lexical-scope it's a non-issue.


        Stefan

Re: Return

[Miles Bader]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
> the cases (in Elisp).

I presume by "non-top-level defun" you mean "defun inside a function",
not "defun inside a form"...

-Miles

-- 
97% of everything is grunge

Re: Return

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>> the cases (in Elisp).
>
> I presume by "non-top-level defun" you mean "defun inside a function",
> not "defun inside a form"...

There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.  One
important point of Lisp is making it easy to create code
programmatically.

I don't understand the "bugs in 99% of the cases", I could hardly
imagine any situation where a defun is used inside of a form
unintentionally, without the interpreter/compiler barfing anyway because
of unmatched parens and/or producing totally non-working code that is
straightforward to figure out.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>>> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>>> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>>> the cases (in Elisp).
>> I presume by "non-top-level defun" you mean "defun inside a function",
>> not "defun inside a form"...

Yes.

> There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.  One
> important point of Lisp is making it easy to create code
> programmatically.

There's `fset' for that.

> I don't understand the "bugs in 99% of the cases", I could hardly
> imagine any situation where a defun is used inside of a form
> unintentionally,

That's because you understand Elisp.  many Elisp programmers don't.


        Stefan

Re: Return

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>>>> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>>>> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>>>> the cases (in Elisp).
>>> I presume by "non-top-level defun" you mean "defun inside a function",
>>> not "defun inside a form"...
>
> Yes.
>
>> There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.  One
>> important point of Lisp is making it easy to create code
>> programmatically.
>
> There's `fset' for that.
>
>> I don't understand the "bugs in 99% of the cases", I could hardly
>> imagine any situation where a defun is used inside of a form
>> unintentionally,
>
> That's because you understand Elisp.  many Elisp programmers don't.

I think you are confusing "unintentionally" with "unwisely".  I think it
is presumptuous to assume as a compiler writer that one can make a
compiler make better decisions than any other programmer, without even
knowing the problem in advance.  That's somewhat above believing to be
able to write a program passing the Turing test.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Return

[Fren Zeee]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 1:17 AM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>>> Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>>> lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>>> such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>>> the cases (in Elisp).
>>
>> I presume by "non-top-level defun" you mean "defun inside a function",
>> not "defun inside a form"...
>
> There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.  One
> important point of Lisp is making it easy to create code
> programmatically.
>
> I don't understand the "bugs in 99% of the cases", I could hardly
> imagine any situation where a defun is used inside of a form
> unintentionally, without the interpreter/compiler barfing anyway because
> of unmatched parens and/or producing totally non-working code that is
> straightforward to figure out.
>

LOL

He wants to go back to PASCAL of Niklaus ... from one level style of C and LISP.

Franz Xe

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

> There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.

Give me examples and I'll tell you if I consider them as
valuable enough.

> One important point of Lisp is making it easy to create
> code programmatically.

Could be, but that's unrelated: I don't intend to rule out (eval
`(defun ...)).


        Stefan

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:
 > > There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.
 > 
 > Give me examples and I'll tell you if I consider them as
 > valuable enough.

Anything you would use `require' for inside a function.  Betcha find a
dozen or more instances of require-in-a-function in Gnus alone.

 > Could be, but that's unrelated: I don't intend to rule out (eval
 > `(defun ...)).

How about (eval '(defun ...))?

But the whole idea is gross, Stefan.  Please rethink this, at least
until April 1.  This is a job for the documentation, not the syntax.

Re: Return

[Stefan Monnier]

>> > There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.
>> Give me examples and I'll tell you if I consider them as
>> valuable enough.
> Anything you would use `require' for inside a function.  Betcha find a
> dozen or more instances of require-in-a-function in Gnus alone.

Irrelevant: the defuns in the loaded file are defined at the top-level
even if the require is called from within a function.  We're calling
about "static top-level", not "top of the recursion stack".


        Stefan

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:
 > >> > There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.
 > >> Give me examples and I'll tell you if I consider them as
 > >> valuable enough.
 > > Anything you would use `require' for inside a function.  Betcha find a
 > > dozen or more instances of require-in-a-function in Gnus alone.
 > 
 > Irrelevant: the defuns in the loaded file are defined at the top-level
 > even if the require is called from within a function.

Irrelevant: the defuns in the function are defined at the top-level
even though defun is called from within a function.

My point is that you could just as well do the defuns inside the
function as in a require'd file.  Much of the time it makes sense to
split them out into a file, of course, but I don't see any good reason
why that should be enforced if the author would prefer to put her
defuns in a function.

defun is always at top level, right?  If I want a local function
(which I do quite frequently) I use flet.

Re: Return

[Fren Zeee]

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull
<stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
> Stefan Monnier writes:
>  > >> > There are lots of reasons for doing a defun inside of a function.
>  > >> Give me examples and I'll tell you if I consider them as
>  > >> valuable enough.
>  > > Anything you would use `require' for inside a function.  Betcha find a
>  > > dozen or more instances of require-in-a-function in Gnus alone.
>  >
>  > Irrelevant: the defuns in the loaded file are defined at the top-level
>  > even if the require is called from within a function.
>
> Irrelevant: the defuns in the function are defined at the top-level
> even though defun is called from within a function.

In this case it is helpful to allow nested defuns.

Most code is developed in build-fix method as Paul Graham has
explained very well.

For making modules, one puts simply a wrapper and want the minimal to
edit and move things around. An auxilary function then gets nested. I
do this often in a language that is lisp under a different label.

> My point is that you could just as well do the defuns inside the
> function as in a require'd file.  Much of the time it makes sense to
> split them out into a file, of course, but I don't see any good reason
> why that should be enforced if the author would prefer to put her
> defuns in a function.
>
> defun is always at top level, right?  If I want a local function
> (which I do quite frequently) I use flet.
>
>
>

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:

 > Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
 > lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
 > such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
 > the cases (in Elisp).

So I guess you don't expect to be adding to any hooks in lexical mode?

(add-hook captain-hook (defun sm-or-dak?-style-foo () (foo bar baz)))

;-)

Re: Return

[David Kastrup]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

> Stefan Monnier writes:
>
>  > Actually, I'm considering to disallow non-top-level defuns in
>  > lexical-scope mode, just because it's a good opportunity to introduce
>  > such "breakage" and because non-top-level defuns are bugs in 99% of
>  > the cases (in Elisp).
>
> So I guess you don't expect to be adding to any hooks in lexical mode?
>
> (add-hook captain-hook (defun sm-or-dak?-style-foo () (foo bar baz)))

Eek.  No point in using the return value of a defun (is it even
defined?)  like that if you can equally well use the function symbol.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

David Kastrup writes:
 > "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

 > > (add-hook captain-hook (defun sm-or-dak?-style-foo () (foo bar baz)))

In view of David's reaction, it looks like

    (add-hook 'captain-hook (defun sm-style-foo () foo bar baz))

is a better guess, and fixes a syntax error in passing.

 >  > Eek.  No point in using the return value of a defun (is it even
 > defined?)  like that if you can equally well use the function symbol.

Better yet, use both, which is what that idiom does.  (defun returns
the defun'ed function symbol.)

(defun sm-style-foo () foo bar baz)
=> sm-style-foo

I use this in my init file in contexts like

(add-hook 'text-mode-hook
          ;; yes I know this function is already defined
          (defun auto-fill-mode-on () (auto-fill-mode 1)))

Note that the defun serves a real purpose here; it makes the init file
"just enough" idempotent in the face of changes to the hook function
being added.  If that were a lambda, not only would the definition of
the hook function be changed, but the original definition would remain
on the hook.

Embedding the defun in the argument might be considered excessively
cute.

Re: Return

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 01:14:34AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

[...]

> Embedding the defun in the argument might be considered excessively
> cute.

Hey, but thanks for the idea, anyway :-)

- -- tomás
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Re: Return

[MON KEY]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:20 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
> MON KEY writes:
>
>  > Indeed, one often doesn't miss what one never knew wasn't there to be missed.
>  > GVM has no doubt leveraged this against future Python initiates.
>
>
> Not at all.  Python is intended to have functional programming
> features, but it's also intended to primarily be an imperative
> language, not a functional language.  GvR is well aware of the uses of
> lambda and there are a lot of fans of lambda (as well as of "first-
> class anonymous blocks" which may or may not be the same as lambdas)
> among Pythonistas.  He just doesn't think such features belong in
> Python, and I have to admit I don't miss them.
>

I'e no clue whether this is good or bad for Python(istas) my
concern is simply that this viewpoint not encroach upon the Emacs Lisp
VM without qualification. :)

In any event, AIUI much of GvR's objection w/re Python's lambda was
that it won't parse cleanly given the syntactic reliance on
whitespace.

Whichever, I was mostly pointing out that with lisp source we don't
rely on whitespace to formally convey syntax and that (with lisp2's at
least) there is ample opportunity to make use of imperative style
block/go/return/return-from forms as well... No doubt this is obvious
to most here but it is all too easily forgotten when discussion of
alternative non-lispy languages are brought to bare on the efficacy of
lispy languages.

>
>  > ,----
>  > | (defmacro lambda (&rest forms) `(defun ,(gensym) ,@forms))
>  > |
>  > | or something like that. ;-)
>  > `----
>  >
>  > Perhaps, but quite a bit more happens at compile time around lambda and will do
>  > more so if/when the lexbind is merged. :)
>
> That was a wink because of course I'm cheating like hell: in a typical
> interpreted Lisp, defun is just a feature-creepy way of associating a
> lambda with a name (aka symbol), and my macro is an inefficient way of
> creating an anonymous function.

Likely you know better than I and the wink wasn't lost on me. :)

However, as you suggest with your caveat "in a typical interpreted
Lisp" this may not apply to compiled code... Which is to say, doesn't
your example dance around what happens around defun/defmacro/lambda at
compile time in any lexically scoped implementation of
<substitute your non-interpreted lexically scoped modern lispy
dialect of choice here>?

> IOW, no, nothing special happens at
> compile time and no, lexbind won't change that.  Any semantic changes
> that happen to lambda will happen to defun and vice versa.
>
>  > What would be interesting to learn is whether there is any will for a formal
>  > incorporation of the C in Clisp w/ the E in elisp?
>
> {...}
> Hrvoje Niksic and Martin Buchholz advocated a Common Lisp as the
> appropriate way to evolve elisp, and IIRC Erik Naggum was in that camp
> too.  But they've all long since left the development community.

The slime users/developers are _actively_ incorporating Common Lisp
(of various implementations) with Emacs/Emacs lisp (unfortunately they
have to resort to a different RPC per implementation to do
so). Regardless, the Slime user/devel community is hardly an
insignificant group.

This said, I suspect most of them only actively engage elisp in lieu
of Common Lisp out of necessity not preference.

>
> I think most of the people with an interest in it are either hacking
> elisp directly (like Miles) or are Schemers (like Mike "R6RS"
> Sperber).
>

Don't forget the Guile Schemers whose efforts to incorporate the R6RS
with that implementation will eventually bring yet another Scheme that
much closer to Greenspun's 10th...

In which case, assuming further future integration of Guile with (GNU)
Emacs we might find that much of what the Common Lisp crowd has sought
for years will (finally) be made available to the Emacs VM.

If such does happen, it will be highly amusing to witness the clamor
by Schemers for elisp incorporation of `#:keywords-styled-thusly'
esp. when these too are dismissed as "ugly" , "inefficient to
implement", "confusing to users", etc.

Meanwhile burgeoning adepts of the GNU Findutils toolbox will no doubt
chuckle nervously at the thought of trying to invoke a `find' command
(with its 70+ flags) with only "By Order of Argument" at their
disposal...

>
>  > the closed/proprietary control maintained on the FSF Emacs source
>  > tree.
>
> Hardly closed *or* proprietary.

Tomato/Potato[1]

> Remember XEmacs in your prayers, and
> rest assured that any work you do on Emacs remains free for others to
> use, whether GNU chooses to distribute it or not.

No doubt. :)

>  If they choose not, you can always do it yourself, as we do.

Yes but there is an accord to maintain some mutual consensus. AIUI your
presence on this list is indicative of such an effort no?
To paraphrase JWZ,  "Now you have two problems."

>
> But ... I wouldn't bet that you'll have more luck peddling your warez
> at xemacs.org or sxemacs.org for that matter.
>

I'm not aware of peddling either here or there... what is occurring
here is more akin to carpet-bagging than to commerce in snake-oil.

>
> That's the nature of a distribution, that somebody decides what to distribute.
> Typically by rejecting your proposals, c'est la vie. :-)
>

If there is angst here it is not around the rejection of any
particular proposal (certainly not my own), but rather about the
persistent inability to engage in reasoned/meaningful/intentioned
discussion w/re incorporating of a particular set of Lisp features by
either ignoring and/or dismissing the utility these features do
otherwise provide both Emacs user community and the greater community
of Lisp dialect users despite a general acknowledgment by both of
these communities that the particular set of features are
wanted/needed and FTMP can be reasonably implemented.

[1] The long term evidence of this inability IMO suggests that the Emacs
project(s) are closed and proprietary project (whether their source be
free or not). That [SX]Emacs does remain reasonably compatible with
GNU Emacs suggest that it too abides this inability (whether tacitly
or otherwise).

--
/s_P\

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

MON KEY writes:

 > > [GvR] just doesn't think such [lambda or anon blocks] belong in
 > > Python, and I have to admit I don't miss them.
 > >
 > 
 > I'e no clue whether this is good or bad for Python(istas) my
 > concern is simply that this viewpoint not encroach upon the Emacs Lisp
 > VM without qualification. :)

No, it won't.  However, I must say (as a maintainer) that use of
lambdas often imposes extra work on debuggers.  I almost always give
lambdas a nickname when I'm reading code that uses them, unless
they're simply implementing partial evaluation.

 > In any event, AIUI much of GvR's objection w/re Python's lambda was
 > that it won't parse cleanly given the syntactic reliance on
 > whitespace.

Not at all.  That's an excuse that some lambda supporters will buy,
but he just doesn't think that the scope for appropriate use of
lambdas is that great, and especially not in Python.  He'd rather add
new specialized syntax for major use cases.  He's almost certainly
right for Python, and he doesn't claim any more generality than that.

 > No doubt this is obvious to most here but it is all too easily
 > forgotten when discussion of alternative non-lispy languages are
 > brought to bare on the efficacy of lispy languages.

Proposing a non-Lispy language wasn't my intention at all.

 > However, as you suggest with your caveat "in a typical interpreted
 > Lisp" this may not apply to compiled code... Which is to say, doesn't
 > your example dance around what happens around defun/defmacro/lambda at
 > compile time in any lexically scoped implementation of
 > <substitute your non-interpreted lexically scoped modern lispy
 > dialect of choice here>?

I'm not sure what you think happens there.  All that defun ever does
(that matters to this discussion) is create a function object and
assign a name (a symbol) to it.  In a Lispy language when that symbol
is encountered as the car of a list to be evalled it is dereferenced
(the function cell in Lisp-2s and the value cell in Lisp-1s), and the
resulting function object applied to the arguments.  Otherwise the car
must be a function object.  And what is a function object?  Either a
lambda or equivalent compiled code (yes, Virginia, a list starting
with a subr can be eval'ed).

So all the interesting questions of lexical scope vs. compilation have
to do with argument passing (including the special semantics of the
environment "variable", however that is defined and implemented).
However, AFAICS this doesn't (and mustn't, otherwise you'd be able to
tell the difference between eval'ing interpreted code and eval'ing
compiled code, which is verboten) change depending on whether the
compiled code object was defined directly as a lambda expression, or
via defun.  If you know differently, I'd rather learn than teach. :-)

 > > But [the CL advocates] all long since left the [Emacs]
 > > development community.
 > 
 > The slime users/developers are _actively_ incorporating Common Lisp
 > (of various implementations) with Emacs/Emacs lisp (unfortunately they
 > have to resort to a different RPC per implementation to do
 > so). Regardless, the Slime user/devel community is hardly an
 > insignificant group.

Nobody says they are.  But unless they hang out here, which they only
seem to do when they've got a bug report, they're not going to have
much influence on the future of the language.  Given that RMS is
generally not in favor of incorporating Common Lisp features, I grant
that could be a huge investment of time, effort, code, and persuasive
engineering.  I'm not criticizing them, I'm telling you that my view
is Emacs Lisp will turn into an implementation of Common Lisp sometime
later than Real Soon Now.

 > >  If they choose not, you can always do it yourself, as we do.
 > 
 > Yes but there is an accord to maintain some mutual consensus. AIUI your
 > presence on this list is indicative of such an effort no?
 > To paraphrase JWZ,  "Now you have two problems."

One of my problems is an addiction to email.  The other is an
affection for David Kastrup.  That is what my presence here
indicates.

More to the point, I long ago gave up on effecting a mutual consensus.
We either do it Emacs's way, or we don't.  That's just the way it has
to be.  I advocate things here that I think would be good for Emacs on
Emacs's own terms.  I don't always get that right, but I'm definitely
not here to advocate the XEmacs way of thinking.

 > persistent inability to engage in reasoned/meaningful/intentioned
 > discussion w/re incorporating of a particular set of Lisp features
 > by either ignoring and/or dismissing the utility these features do
 > otherwise provide both Emacs user community and the greater
 > community of Lisp dialect users despite a general acknowledgment by
 > both of these communities that the particular set of features are
 > wanted/needed and FTMP can be reasonably implemented.

Frankly, I don't see any such general acknowledgement in the general
Emacs community.  There is a significant subset of developers who
would like that, yes.  But the non-developer users could care less,
and many developers either prefer a different style of language or
fear that incorporation of more features would lead to a deterioration
of performance for typical use-cases or instability in use, which
really isn't acceptable.

Take lexbind, for example.  It's been on the agenda for a long time,
and AFAIK RMS *never* objected to it in principle (at least once it
was made clear that dynamic scope would continue to be supported).
However, he does like dynamic scope, and insists that features like
lexbind be added in a way that doesn't get in the way of ordinary
users of existing Emacs features or cause the whole program to become
unstable.

 > [1] The long term evidence of this inability IMO suggests that the Emacs
 > project(s) are closed and proprietary project (whether their source be
 > free or not). That [SX]Emacs does remain reasonably compatible with
 > GNU Emacs suggest that it too abides this inability (whether tacitly
 > or otherwise).

All it proves is that we're lazy, and want to take advantage of the
improvements to *Emacs* technology more than we want to take advantage
of improvements to *Lisp* technology.  When all is said and done,
\(S?X\)?Emacs is as much an application as it is a language, and most
of our developers have far more interest in the application than the
language.

Eg, Aidan Kehoe has been busily improving our Common Lisp support,
even down to rewriting some of the docs (will wonders never cease?!) 
and using some standard set of tests for the features he's
adding/upgrading/conformancing.  Has he released any code that
*depends* on these features?  Not yet, and I bet not soon.  Does he
release (non-CL-implementation) code?  Sure, an' he does.  But it's
all bug fixes and conventional features.  You may think that's
unfortunate, but that's the way the world works.

Re: Return

[David Kastrup]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

> MON KEY writes:
>
>  > > [GvR] just doesn't think such [lambda or anon blocks] belong in
>  > > Python, and I have to admit I don't miss them.
>  > >
>  > 
>  > I'e no clue whether this is good or bad for Python(istas) my
>  > concern is simply that this viewpoint not encroach upon the Emacs Lisp
>  > VM without qualification. :)
>
> No, it won't.  However, I must say (as a maintainer) that use of
> lambdas often imposes extra work on debuggers.  I almost always give
> lambdas a nickname when I'm reading code that uses them, unless
> they're simply implementing partial evaluation.

A nickname doesn't really apply well with closures.  For debugging
purposes, a "named lambda" might be helpful.  Conceivably one could
supply something like that using a DOC string.

> Nobody says they are.  But unless they hang out here, which they only
> seem to do when they've got a bug report, they're not going to have
> much influence on the future of the language.  Given that RMS is
> generally not in favor of incorporating Common Lisp features,

I don't think anybody minds the features.  The problem is the cost in
syntactic complexity and language intransparency.  cl is a large and
invasive hack that is not particularly nice during debugging,
decompiling and code design and optization.  lexbind is a first step in
a direction where some Common Lisp features become less costly.

>  > Yes but there is an accord to maintain some mutual consensus. AIUI
>  > your presence on this list is indicative of such an effort no?  To
>  > paraphrase JWZ, "Now you have two problems."
>
> One of my problems is an addiction to email.  The other is an
> affection for David Kastrup.  That is what my presence here indicates.

Doing all the right things for ostensibly awfully bad reasons sounds
like a form of compassionate nihilism designed to get out of the line of
appreciation.  After all, it could get you into serious trouble at
/home/xemacs if somebody were as foolish as to, say, nominate you for
the Free Software Award for minimizing, for whatever reason, the
consequences of the great schism without losing face or focus.  And it
would look decidedly fishy if I were to do such a thing after this
announcement.

> More to the point, I long ago gave up on effecting a mutual consensus.
> We either do it Emacs's way, or we don't.  That's just the way it has
> to be.  I advocate things here that I think would be good for Emacs on
> Emacs's own terms.  I don't always get that right, but I'm definitely
> not here to advocate the XEmacs way of thinking.

You are advocating the Turnbull way of thinking, here and "there".  At
least here, mixed success is nothing to be worried about.

> Frankly, I don't see any such general acknowledgement in the general
> Emacs community.  There is a significant subset of developers who
> would like that, yes.  But the non-developer users could care less,
> and many developers either prefer a different style of language or
> fear that incorporation of more features would lead to a deterioration
> of performance for typical use-cases or instability in use, which
> really isn't acceptable.

I see much more the danger in bit rot.  I've been considering helping
with a dedicated lilypond-mode building on lyqi.el (there is a git repo
for that).  The code is an exercise in cl use and makes my eyes glaze
over.  I can't sensibly contribute, because it is utterly beyond me.
Many times in Emacs programming, I give up on the documentation and just
dig through the sources to see what something does deep down.

cl does not lend itself to that approach.  Its code is highly complex
and utterly underdocumented.  You have to trust it to do the right
thing.  I hate doing that.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

David Kastrup writes:

 > I don't think anybody minds the features.

IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
arguments.  I suppose that's part of the "syntactic complexity" you
mention, but MON KEY OTOH points out cases where he'd like to use
them.  So there are some fundamental disagreements here.

There are also people who would like full-blown CL conformance in
Emacs.  You could argue they could get that with Hemlock, but then
they don't get full-blown Emacs conformance.  (I'm not sure why they
think it would be easier to turn Emacs Lisp into Common Lisp, than to
turn Hemlock into a fully compatible implementation of GNU Emacs, but
there you have it.)

 > cl does not lend itself to that approach.  Its code is highly complex
 > and utterly underdocumented.  You have to trust it to do the right
 > thing.  I hate doing that.

I think everybody agrees with all of those points, except that some
people are happy to trust now and debug later.

Re: Return

[Richard Stallman]

    IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
    arguments.

I don't mind them in things that are very heavyweight anyway, such as
setting frame attributes.  What I dislike about Common Lisp is
introducing them into familiar basic Lisp functions such as `member'.
Common Lisp also changes `member' incompatibly to use `eql' as the
default comparison function.  So you must use a keyword argument to
get the existing `member' behavior.


-- 
Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org

Re: Return

[Daniel Colascione]

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On 12/7/10 8:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> David Kastrup writes:
> 
>  > I don't think anybody minds the features.
> 
> IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
> arguments.  I suppose that's part of the "syntactic complexity" you
> mention, but MON KEY OTOH points out cases where he'd like to use
> them.  So there are some fundamental disagreements here.

I'd just like to add my support for keyword arguments. Functions like
write-region are both horrible and brittle because their parameters are
both numerous and overloaded; specific functionality can be more simply
expressed with using keyword arguments. Precedent can be seen in
play-sound, defcustom, and elsewhere. The performance arguments opposing
keyword arguments don't seem to be supported by benchmarks, and in any
case, most functions, especially ones with rich functionality, aren't on
the fast path.


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Keyword args (was: Return)

[Helmut Eller]

* Daniel Colascione [2010-12-10 07:42] writes:

> On 12/7/10 8:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> David Kastrup writes:
>> 
>>  > I don't think anybody minds the features.
>> 
>> IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
>> arguments.  I suppose that's part of the "syntactic complexity" you
>> mention, but MON KEY OTOH points out cases where he'd like to use
>> them.  So there are some fundamental disagreements here.
>
> I'd just like to add my support for keyword arguments. Functions like
> write-region are both horrible and brittle because their parameters are
> both numerous and overloaded; specific functionality can be more simply
> expressed with using keyword arguments. 

You always have the option to make a macro with keyword arguments which
expands to a call to the "raw" function.

The only disadvantage of this approach is that macros can't be used with
higher order functions, ala mapcar.  But keyword arguments a rarely
useful in that case.

> Precedent can be seen in play-sound, defcustom, and elsewhere.

For a bad example see make-network-process.  That takes keyword
arguments but the keyword parsing is done in C and it doesn't do a good
job.  It doesn't detect invalid keywords; doesn't detect conflicting
keys; some keys are documented to be ignored when some other keys are
supplied.  It's very difficult to use.  Correct keyword parsing in C is
difficult so I would vote against it.

Also note that defcustom is a macro and play-sound takes a plist.  The
plist idiom is IMO superior to keywords.  In particular passing
arguments along gets easier.  E.g.

(defun foo (x y plist) 
  (bar x y) 
  (baz plist))

is IMO more readable than:

(defun* foo (x y &key key1 key2 key3)    
  (bar x y) 
  (baz :key1 key1 :key2 key2 :key3 key3))

or the rather silly

(defun* foo (x y &rest plist &key key1 key2 key3)
  (bar x y) 
  (apply #'baz plist))

Since we have destructuring-bind parsing plists is not very hard.

> The performance arguments opposing
> keyword arguments don't seem to be supported by benchmarks, and in any
> case, most functions, especially ones with rich functionality, aren't on
> the fast path.

The sequence functions find, position, assoc*, member* etc. are on the
fast path.  Ironically those are the functions where keyword args are
very useful because the meaning is relatively consistent.

Helmut

Re: Keyword args

[Daniel Colascione]

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On 12/10/10 12:53 AM, Helmut Eller wrote:
> * Daniel Colascione [2010-12-10 07:42] writes:
> 
>> On 12/7/10 8:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>> David Kastrup writes:
>>>
>>>  > I don't think anybody minds the features.
>>>
>>> IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
>>> arguments.  I suppose that's part of the "syntactic complexity" you
>>> mention, but MON KEY OTOH points out cases where he'd like to use
>>> them.  So there are some fundamental disagreements here.
>>
>> I'd just like to add my support for keyword arguments. Functions like
>> write-region are both horrible and brittle because their parameters are
>> both numerous and overloaded; specific functionality can be more simply
>> expressed with using keyword arguments. 
> 
> You always have the option to make a macro with keyword arguments which
> expands to a call to the "raw" function.

How many forwarder macros do you need to sufficiently cover the problem
space? Combinatorial explosion is a problem when the set of possible
inputs is large.

> The only disadvantage of this approach is that macros can't be used with
> higher order functions, ala mapcar.  But keyword arguments a rarely
> useful in that case.

You're mostly right, though it's not impossible to imagine a situation
in which it's useful to APPLY a keyword-argument-parsing function.

>> Precedent can be seen in play-sound, defcustom, and elsewhere.
> 
> For a bad example see make-network-process.  That takes keyword
> arguments but the keyword parsing is done in C and it doesn't do a good
> job.  It doesn't detect invalid keywords; doesn't detect conflicting
> keys; some keys are documented to be ignored when some other keys are
> supplied.  It's very difficult to use.  Correct keyword parsing in C is
> difficult so I would vote against it.

Clearly, the solution is more uniform keyword argument parsing; either
library functions in C could be provided, or make-network-process could
be made a Lisp keyword-parsing front-end for some horrible
%make-network-process that implements the functionality.

Still, most functions aren't written in C, and keyword parsing is easier
in Lisp.

> Also note that defcustom is a macro and play-sound takes a plist.  The
> plist idiom is IMO superior to keywords.  In particular passing
> arguments along gets easier.  E.g.
> 
> (defun foo (x y plist) 
>   (bar x y) 
>   (baz plist))
> 
> is IMO more readable than:
> 
> (defun* foo (x y &key key1 key2 key3)    
>   (bar x y) 
>   (baz :key1 key1 :key2 key2 :key3 key3))
> 
> or the rather silly
> 
> (defun* foo (x y &rest plist &key key1 key2 key3)
>   (bar x y) 
>   (apply #'baz plist))

The apply example isn't that bad in my book, and most of the time, you
don't need to forward an arbitrary subset of keyword parameters to
another function anyway.

> 
> Since we have destructuring-bind parsing plists is not very hard.

Sure, but putting them in the lambda-list is even easier for most cases,
especially when there aren't that many arguments. It's also easier to
document functions written with &key than it is to document equivalent
functions that do ad-hoc parsing.

> 
>> The performance arguments opposing
>> keyword arguments don't seem to be supported by benchmarks, and in any
>> case, most functions, especially ones with rich functionality, aren't on
>> the fast path.
> 
> The sequence functions find, position, assoc*, member* etc. are on the
> fast path.  Ironically those are the functions where keyword args are
> very useful because the meaning is relatively consistent.

Compiler macros can eliminate the pain in this case.


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Re: Keyword args

[Helmut Eller]

* Daniel Colascione [2010-12-13 02:10] writes:

> On 12/10/10 12:53 AM, Helmut Eller wrote:
>> * Daniel Colascione [2010-12-10 07:42] writes:
>> 
>>> On 12/7/10 8:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>>> David Kastrup writes:
>>>>
>>>>  > I don't think anybody minds the features.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC rms has recently declared his dislike for CL-style keyword
>>>> arguments.  I suppose that's part of the "syntactic complexity" you
>>>> mention, but MON KEY OTOH points out cases where he'd like to use
>>>> them.  So there are some fundamental disagreements here.
>>>
>>> I'd just like to add my support for keyword arguments. Functions like
>>> write-region are both horrible and brittle because their parameters are
>>> both numerous and overloaded; specific functionality can be more simply
>>> expressed with using keyword arguments. 
>> 
>> You always have the option to make a macro with keyword arguments which
>> expands to a call to the "raw" function.
>
> How many forwarder macros do you need to sufficiently cover the problem
> space? Combinatorial explosion is a problem when the set of possible
> inputs is large.

Exactly as many macros as you would be need keyword argument parsing
functions.  Whether keywords are used for functions or macros makes no
difference to cover the "problem space" (which I presume is a better
interface to write-region).

Helmut

Re: Keyword args

[Andy Wingo]

On Mon 13 Dec 2010 03:10, Daniel Colascione <dan.colascione@gmail.com> writes:

> Clearly, the solution is more uniform keyword argument parsing; either
> library functions in C could be provided, or make-network-process could
> be made a Lisp keyword-parsing front-end for some horrible
> %make-network-process that implements the functionality.

FWIW, Guile supports keyword arguments natively. IMO the proper way to
do things is to keep a uniform calling convention, and allow procedures
to parse arguments themselves, with low-level support.

    scheme@(guile-user)> (lambda* (#:key (foo 42)) foo)
    $1 = #<procedure 1c2f080 at standard input:1:0 (#:key foo)>
    scheme@(guile-user)> ,disassemble $1
    Disassembly of #<procedure 1c2f080 at standard input:1:0 (#:key foo)>:

Here we have some instructions that aren't disassembled quite as
perspicaciously as one might like, but they take the args on the stack,
and shuffle the non-positional args up:

       0    (assert-nargs-ge 0 0)           
       3    (bind-optionals/shuffle 0 0 0 0 0 1)

And here we bind keywords. This says "fetch the keywords from the
constant table at index 1, and scan the non-positional args for one
keyword, disallowing other keywords.

      10    (bind-kwargs 0 1 0 1 0)         

It's somewhat complicated code, but it's a const only borne by keyword
arguments. Here we have the code that initializes `foo' if it's not
given:

      16    (reserve-locals 0 1)            
      19    (local-bound? 0)                
      21    (br-if :L111)                   ;; -> 29
      25    (make-int8 42)                  ;; 42
      27    (local-set 0)                   ;; `foo'

And finally (!) the main body:

      29    (local-ref 0)                   ;; `foo'
      31    (return)                        

Some tests:

    > (define (fib n) (if (< n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2)))))
    > ,time (fib 35)
    $1 = 14930352
    clock utime stime cutime cstime gctime
     2.99  2.99  0.01   0.00   0.00   0.00
    > (define* (fibk #:key (n 0)) (if (< n 2) 1 (+ (fibk #:n (- n 1)) (fibk #:n (- n 2)))))
    > ,time (fibk 35)
    <stdin>:5:6: warning: possibly wrong number of arguments to `fibk'
    While executing meta-command:
    ERROR: Odd length of keyword argument list
    > ,time (fibk #:n 35)
    $2 = 14930352
    clock utime stime cutime cstime gctime
     5.01  4.99  0.00   0.00   0.00   0.00

FWIW on this machine a byte-compiled elisp (fib 35) on emacs takes about
6 seconds.

I wrote more about this sort of thing here:

    http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/11/07/case-lambda-in-guile
    http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/11/08/optionals-keywords-oh-my

Our elisp support uses this native infrastructure for keywords and
optionals, but there obviously are some differences regarding
implementation of dynamic scope.  Lexical binding is a lot cheaper, for
Guile, but we hope to get dynamic binding cheap too.

Anyway, I would like to discourage complicated implementations in
"user-space" for keyword arguments. They should be a core language
feature, for all the reasons I gave in my first article.

Happy hacking,

Andy
-- 
http://wingolog.org/

Re: Keyword args

[Miles Bader]

Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> writes:
> Anyway, I would like to discourage complicated implementations in
> "user-space" for keyword arguments. They should be a core language
> feature, for all the reasons I gave in my first article.

well... I agree, mostly (though that doesn't mean I agree that many
primitives in elisp should _use_ keywords, e.g. to the extent that CL
does).

Another perhaps-useful concept is alternate function entry points for an
"already handled" argument form (my vague memory is that CMUCL does
this).  In many cases the compiler could then do argument parsing at
compile time and generate a call to the "simple" entry point.

-Miles

-- 
Consult, v.i. To seek another's disapproval of a course already decided on.

Re: Keyword args

[Helmut Eller]

* Miles Bader [2010-12-14 05:03] writes:

> Another perhaps-useful concept is alternate function entry points for an
> "already handled" argument form (my vague memory is that CMUCL does
> this).  In many cases the compiler could then do argument parsing at
> compile time and generate a call to the "simple" entry point.

CMUCL does compile-time keyword parsing only for the local-call
convention, i.e. if the callee is known and doesn't change.  It's not
done for a normal call to a named global function; that uses the generic
slow entry point.  If all call-sites were known (say recorded in a
linkage table) and could be patched on redefintion a more direct entry
point could be used more often, but CMUCL doesn't do that.  So, I think
compile-time keyword parsing is rarely done in practice.

Helmut

Re: Return

[MON KEY]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
> MON KEY writes:
>
> No, it won't.  However, I must say (as a maintainer) that use of
> lambdas often imposes extra work on debuggers.  I almost always give
> lambdas a nickname when I'm reading code that uses them, unless
> they're simply implementing partial evaluation.

I'm sorry, but it isn't clear, for which language?

> Proposing a non-Lispy language wasn't my intention at all.
>

OK, great!

>  > your example dance around what happens around defun/defmacro/lambda at
>  > compile time in any lexically scoped implementation of
>  > <substitute your non-interpreted lexically scoped modern lispy
>  > dialect of choice here>?
>
> I'm not sure what you think happens there.

The question is (apropos the above) when will what happen where? ;-)

> All that defun ever does (that matters to this discussion) is create a
> function object and assign a name (a symbol) to it.

AFAIK the discussion is still re return/return-from/block and presumably by
proxy go/tagbody etc. with the ostensible lexbind sprinkled on top.

>
> compiled code, which is verboten) change depending on whether the
> compiled code object was defined directly as a lambda expression, or
> via defun.  If you know differently, I'd rather learn than teach. :-)
>

Thank you for taking the time to communicate your knowledge.

I am curious to learn how you understand all of what you say re lexcial scoping
to jibe with lambda, closures, and macroexpansion at compile time, and more
particularly with consideration as to why Common Lisp's `lambda-lists-keywords'
contains an &environment and &whole?

>
> Frankly, I don't see any such general acknowledgement in the general
> Emacs community.
>

Most likely those who might otherwise caucus more vocally have left
with a whimper.

--
/s_P\

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

MON KEY writes:
 > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
 > > MON KEY writes:
 > >
 > > No, it won't.  However, I must say (as a maintainer) that use of
 > > lambdas often imposes extra work on debuggers.  I almost always give
 > > lambdas a nickname when I'm reading code that uses them, unless
 > > they're simply implementing partial evaluation.
 > 
 > I'm sorry, but it isn't clear, for which language?

Any language that has lambdas.  Especially Ruby, where lambda (aka
anonymous block) abuse is reaching levels that demand protective
legislation for the poor little critters.

 > The question is (apropos the above) when will what happen where?
 > ;-)

Once you have the answer for lambda, you have the answer for defun,
and vice versa, modulo the symbol deref required for a defun'ed
symbol.  The answer for lambda (resp. defun) is left as an exercise
for the reader.

 > AFAIK the discussion is still re return/return-from/block and presumably by
 > proxy go/tagbody etc. with the ostensible lexbind sprinkled on top.

You're confused, then.  Sorry, I guess I should have changed the
subject to "defun vs. lambda". :-)  Of the concepts you belatedly
reintroduce here, only "lexbind" has been mentioned in the last 4 or 5
messages in this subthread, and the paragraph above applies perfectly
well to all that other stuff anyway.

 > I am curious to learn how you understand all of what you say re lexcial scoping
 > to jibe with lambda, closures, and macroexpansion at compile time, and more
 > particularly with consideration as to why Common Lisp's `lambda-lists-keywords'
 > contains an &environment and &whole?

It should be clear: I haven't even thought about it since the
publication of CLTL1, and even then I considered it a spectator sport.

But I don't need to think about it, in the question of lambda
vs. defun.

 > > Frankly, I don't see any such general acknowledgement in the general
 > > Emacs community.
 > 
 > Most likely those who might otherwise caucus more vocally have left
 > with a whimper.

I predict that's what you will do, too.  You're trying to score
debating points, but that cuts no ice here.  What counts are code and
user requirements explained in a way that makes sense to the Emacs
maintainers.  All three (code, requirement, making sense) must be
present or your feature won't make it to the distributed Emacs.

Re: Return

[MON KEY]

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
> MON KEY writes:
>  > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
>  > > MON KEY writes:
>  > >
>  > > No, it won't.  However, I must say (as a maintainer) that use
>  > > of lambdas often imposes extra work on debuggers.  I almost
>  > > always give lambdas a nickname when I'm reading code that uses
>  > > them, unless they're simply implementing partial evaluation.
>  >
>  > I'm sorry, but it isn't clear, for which language?
>
> Any language that has lambdas.  Especially Ruby, where lambda (aka
> anonymous block) abuse is reaching levels that demand protective
> legislation for the poor little critters.
>
>  > The question is (apropos the above) when will what happen where?
>  > ;-)
>
> Once you have the answer for lambda, you have the answer for defun,
> and vice versa, modulo the symbol deref required for a defun'ed
> symbol.  The answer for lambda (resp. defun) is left as an exercise
> for the reader.
>

Is such an exercise so trivial a thing?

I recall there being a seminal series of paper written in the late
1970s with the short form titles matching the pattern:
 "Lambda the Ultimate .*"
e.g. the "The Lambda Papers" http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html

Note my use of the word "seminal" above. It was "left as an exercise"
to the now highly accomplished minds of CS to figure this out. I don't
pretend to understand/grasp or even have read much of what was
published on the topic. Should I assume this sort of stuff is obvious?

It apparently wasn't all that obvious for someone at DARPA circa
197[0-9] or they probably wouldn't have funded the work that produced
the deliverable largely responsible for the contemporary Lisps...

I would point out though that AI Memo 443[+] has an appendix section
entitled "Notes" with a subsection entitled "{Note Step Variables}" at
page 19 which discusses lexical scope and what might happen at runtime
with non-local exits inside a labeled recursive looping construct.

[+] Guy Lewis Steele, Jr.. "Debunking the "Expensive Procedure Call"
Myth, or Procedure Call Implementations Considered Harmful, or LAMBDA,
the Ultimate GOTO". ACM Conference Proceedings. October 1977.

>
>  > AFAIK the discussion is still re return/return-from/block and
>  > presumably by proxy go/tagbody etc. with the ostensible lexbind
>  > sprinkled on top.
>
> You're confused, then.

Most likely I am confused.

I don't see how `return', `return-from', `block', `tagbody', `go',
`unwind-protect', etc. can't not be affected by the `lexbind' nor how
their implementation in elisp (now or eventual) won't affect the
semantics of lambda/defun/defmacro.

> Sorry, I guess I should have changed the subject to "defun vs. lambda". :-)

No, that would not have been useful for readers navigating the
Internet time machine.

> Of the concepts you belatedly reintroduce here, only "lexbind" has

It strikes me that the concept of "belated reintroduction" is exactly
what is under consideration here. :)

What happens where in the `lexbind' will most definitely have
consequences w/re unwind-protect and I would suggest an eventual (an
inevitable plea for) attempts to integrate some form of
return/return-from/block/tagbody/go/ etc.

> been mentioned in the last 4 or 5 messages in this subthread, and
> the paragraph above applies perfectly well to all that other stuff
> anyway.
>

It is good to know that _you_ are sure, because apparently such
non-trivial issues as whether the lexbind will allow non-toplevel
defun's is not yet a "finalized" matter.

>  > I am curious to learn how you understand all of what you say re
>  > lexcial scoping to jibe with lambda, closures, and macroexpansion
>  > at compile time, and more particularly with consideration as to
>  > why Common Lisp's `lambda-lists-keywords' contains an
>  > &environment and &whole?

>
> It should be clear: I haven't even thought about it since the
> publication of CLTL1, and even then I considered it a spectator
> sport.
>

Can I assume then that the nature of my query re &environment and
&whole wasn't entirely lost on you?

What is clear (to me at least) is that CLTL2 pre-supposed changes to
Common Lisp which were sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle
ways. Moreover, given that the nearest contemporary lisp dialect to
Emacs lisp is Common Lisp (and this is the thrust of my concern) there
is a tremendously useful archive from the discussion of the CL ANSI
committee which addressed many of these issues and which I think
remain relevant to considerations w/re the lexbind.

I'm reasonably sure that only Miles/Stephan will have a hand in the
initial integration of the core of the lexbind with GNU Emacs, and
this will happen without too much discussion here. What I'm interested
to understand is how once that initial integration occurs others will
react, adapt, adjust, complain, lobby etc.

At the very least, the X3J13s formal discussion of and rationale for
how/why certain issues brought before them were resolved/addressed may
be able to inform future discussions re the elisp lexbind.

This is for example why I asked about use of &environment &whole.
There were more than one X3J13 votes around these.  See for example
"Issue &ENVIRONMENT-BINDING-ORDER Writeup" the CLHS.

From a CL perspective those issues often appear to have had an impact
on what happened w/ macroexpansion.

I find this both relevant and interesting w/re the GNU Emacs `lexbind'
and non-local exits because (as currently implemented in the lexbind
branch) it redefines what happens with `macroexpand' `macroexpand-all'
at compile time... this in turn influences `byte-compile-closure' and
`byte-compile-make-closure'.

It is left as an exercise for all of us to figure out how this stuff
will interact w/ things elisp's `define-modify-macro', `defsetf', etc.

> But I don't need to think about it, in the question of lambda
> vs. defun.
>

This was never the crux of _my_ question.

As a reminder, apropos the YAGNI re an alternative elisp VM you tossed
out a caveatted example of defmacro'ing `lambda' by way of
defun/gensym, e.g.:

   ,----
   | (defmacro lambda (&rest forms) `(defun ,(gensym) ,@forms))
   |
   | or something like that. ;-)
   `----

My question was:

    "doesn't your example dance around what happens around
    defun/defmacro/lambda at compile time in any lexically scoped
    implementation of <substitute your non-interpreted lexically
    scoped modern lispy dialect of choice here>?"

>
> maintainers.  All three (code, requirement, making sense) must be
> present or your feature won't make it to the distributed Emacs.
>

There is no feature.

--
/s_P\

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

MON KEY writes:

 > > Once you have the answer for lambda, you have the answer for defun,
 > > and vice versa, modulo the symbol deref required for a defun'ed
 > > symbol.  The answer for lambda (resp. defun) is left as an exercise
 > > for the reader.
 > >
 > 
 > Is such an exercise so trivial a thing?

No, it's nontrivial.  But it's not the question I was answering; the
question I was answering was the trivial one.  As Spivak points out,
answering trivial questions is the ultimate in mathematical elegance.

 > > Sorry, I guess I should have changed the subject to "defun vs. lambda". :-)
 > 
 > No, that would not have been useful for readers navigating the
 > Internet time machine.

Of course it would be useful.  Those who are interested in what you
always wanted to know about Lisp but were afraid to ask would have
known to avoid this subthread.  Me too, for that matter. :-)

 > > Of the concepts you belatedly reintroduce here, only "lexbind" has
 > 
 > It strikes me that the concept of "belated reintroduction" is exactly
 > what is under consideration here. :)

Cute!

 > Can I assume then that the nature of my query re &environment and
 > &whole wasn't entirely lost on you?

Yes.  That will be the first valid assumption you've made about what I
know or am thinking in this conversation, most likely. :-)

 > What happens where in the `lexbind' will most definitely have
 > consequences w/re unwind-protect and I would suggest an eventual (an
 > inevitable plea for) attempts to integrate some form of
 > return/return-from/block/tagbody/go/ etc.

Sure, but you complained about lack of lambda in a language (Python)
which has had to deal with all those issues, too, and has done so
fairly successfully.  If you wanted to discuss something else, you
should have made your point in different words.  The discussion about
lambda among developers of Python is *entirely* about the ugliness
and/or inconvenience of having to choose a name for a function used
only once.  Not about missing functionality.  You seem to have a
misconception about that, which I wanted to correct.

I would imagine that Lisp researchers were the first to come to grips
with these issues in many cases, and perhaps in the most generality.
But it is *not* specious to draw analogies to Python in the context of
*Emacs* Lisp.  Both languages are pragmatically designed, Emacs Lisp
as a substrate for implementing powerful editor/operating systems, and
Python as a powerful generic scripting language.  While Python does
provide solutions for all these problems, it does so in a very
pragmatic way.  Rather than try to come up with a generic syntax that
works for all functions, Python provides a (limited) variety of
syntaxes that are very efficient for situations commonly encountered
by developers using Python.  It seems reasonable to suppose that such
an approach could be useful for Emacs Lisp as well.

Of course that's debatable.  But I at least find it as plausible as
pleas for implementation of all these Common Lisp features.

Re: Return

[Samuel Bronson]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:42 PM, MON KEY <monkey@sandpframing.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:20 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
>> MON KEY writes:

>>  > What would be interesting to learn is whether there is any will for a formal
>>  > incorporation of the C in Clisp w/ the E in elisp?
>>
>> {...}
>> Hrvoje Niksic and Martin Buchholz advocated a Common Lisp as the
>> appropriate way to evolve elisp, and IIRC Erik Naggum was in that camp
>> too.  But they've all long since left the development community.
>
> The slime users/developers are _actively_ incorporating Common Lisp
> (of various implementations) with Emacs/Emacs lisp (unfortunately they
> have to resort to a different RPC per implementation to do
> so). Regardless, the Slime user/devel community is hardly an
> insignificant group.

I thought they used a common CL-side codebase known as "swank" for all
of the Common Lisp implementations, and that something else was only
needed when talking with some other kind of Lisp (or a non-Lisp)?

> This said, I suspect most of them only actively engage elisp in lieu
> of Common Lisp out of necessity not preference.


>>  > the closed/proprietary control maintained on the FSF Emacs source
>>  > tree.
>>
>> Hardly closed *or* proprietary.
>
> Tomato/Potato[1]

Obviously the meaning here was not precisely "the opposite of Open
Source / Free Software", which *is* what those words most often mean
when they describe software in these parts, but note that here they
describe the *control* over a *particular* source tree, which is a
distinctly different thing, though many effects may be similar.

(Thankfully, not all: no matter how much of MS's .NET Framework source
code may be available for me to (hypothetically) single-step through,
I doubt I will ever be permitted to fork it or incorporate it into my
own programs beyond trivial-fair-use copy/paste/modify of tiny bits.
Not that I use .NET or anything; it's just the only example of a
totally proprietary codebase which nevertheless has more-or-less
publicly-visible code that I could think of -- where public == people
with access to Windows systems w/ sufficient free hard drive space to
install a recent enough Visual Foo Express Edition (at least, I think
it's supposed to work on Express Editions), admittedly.)

>> Remember XEmacs in your prayers, and
>> rest assured that any work you do on Emacs remains free for others to
>> use, whether GNU chooses to distribute it or not.
>
> No doubt. :)
>
>>  If they choose not, you can always do it yourself, as we do.
>
> Yes but there is an accord to maintain some mutual consensus. AIUI your
> presence on this list is indicative of such an effort no?
> To paraphrase JWZ,  "Now you have two problems."

You mean, maintaining the feature and dealing with the pain that is
non-core autoloads?

>> But ... I wouldn't bet that you'll have more luck peddling your warez
>> at xemacs.org or sxemacs.org for that matter.
>>
>
> I'm not aware of peddling either here or there... what is occurring
> here is more akin to carpet-bagging than to commerce in snake-oil.
>
>>
>> That's the nature of a distribution, that somebody decides what to distribute.
>> Typically by rejecting your proposals, c'est la vie. :-)
>
> If there is angst here it is not around the rejection of any
> particular proposal (certainly not my own), but rather about the
> persistent inability to engage in reasoned/meaningful/intentioned
> discussion w/re incorporating of a particular set of Lisp features by
> either ignoring and/or dismissing the utility these features do
> otherwise provide both Emacs user community and the greater community
> of Lisp dialect users despite a general acknowledgment by both of
> these communities that the particular set of features are
> wanted/needed and FTMP can be reasonably implemented.

I seem to recall there being a very significant incident of this that
lead to someone forking Emacs ... if only I could remember what the
fork was called!

> [1] The long term evidence of this inability IMO suggests that the Emacs
> project(s) are closed and proprietary project (whether their source be
> free or not). That [SX]Emacs does remain reasonably compatible with
> GNU Emacs suggest that it too abides this inability (whether tacitly
> or otherwise).

Compatibility and restriction are two different things. That [S]XEmacs
does not incorporate more of the RMS-rejected features probably says
more about the development effort available to [S]XEmacs vs. that
required to implement/port/submit the features than anything else.
Probably, in the case of add-on packages, it does not help that the
XEmacs packaging machinery is only intended for use with packages
stored in its own CVS tree...

Re: Return

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Samuel Bronson writes:

 > when they describe software in these parts, but note that here they
 > describe the *control* over a *particular* source tree, which is a
 > distinctly different thing,

Nobody has control over "the" source tree in open source or free
software.  What individuals can control are disk space and maintainer
time, and perhaps "mind share".

 > though many effects may be similar.

FUD.  For heaven's sake, we all use dVCSes, so everybody clearly has
"control" over "the" source tree in the sense of disk space.  And for
distribution, there are dozens of zero-fee outlets.  Within the free
software and open source communities[1], only mind share matters, but
that is independent of "control of a source tree".

Richard, Linus, Theo, and I, inter alia, have some say over mind share
because of past service to the community, present effort, and the
assessment of our abilities by our communities.  Not because of our
control of certain disk space, but because people *want to use* the
trees on the disks we control.  N.B. I make that comparison
deliberately in all humility[sic], because it demonstrates that there
is a continuum of "control" over mind share (and it's
multidimensional, too).  Some are more equal than others.  There are
reasons for that (perhaps none that justify my own exalted position --
and so it goes :-).

 > Probably, in the case of add-on packages, it does not help that the
 > XEmacs packaging machinery is only intended for use with packages
 > stored in its own CVS tree...

That is false.  If somebody wants to use our packaging machinery for
out of tree packaging, they are certainly welcome to do so.  VM does
it, for example.  I among others would spend some effort to make that
easier; I know it's rather awkward at the moment.

The point is that what people have consistently asked for is *not*
that the machinery be usable out of tree.  It turns out that lots of
people have figured out how to make the machinery work out of tree.
What they want is for *us to distribute* packages made out of tree.
That's quite different, and I don't see any way it's going to happen,
any more than Emacs Lisp is going to become Common Lisp without
convincing Richard of the need.

If someone doesn't like that, all they need to change it is mind
share.  They most likely have everything else already, and if not,
it's easy to acquire.

Footnotes: 
[1]  The point being that outside of those communities, control over
trees is indeed possible and powerful.  In fact, the GNU GPL exploits
that power.

Re: Return

[Samuel Bronson]

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:06 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:

>  > Probably, in the case of add-on packages, it does not help that the
>  > XEmacs packaging machinery is only intended for use with packages
>  > stored in its own CVS tree...
>
> That is false.  If somebody wants to use our packaging machinery for
> out of tree packaging, they are certainly welcome to do so.  VM does
> it, for example.  I among others would spend some effort to make that
> easier; I know it's rather awkward at the moment.

Er, I guess I should have made that clearer... I actually meant that
it seems that (more or less) needs to put *something* in the
xemacs-packages tree, and this is (I assume) not particularly fun
without CVS commit access. At least, none of my DVCSes seem to be able
to handle branching from CVS...

Keyword args (was: Return)

[MON KEY]

> Since we have destructuring-bind parsing plists is not very hard.

No, we have _some_ of dbind...

Following is the CL specs cannonical `destructuring-bind' example:

,----
|
| Examples:
|
|  (defun iota (n) (loop for i from 1 to n collect i))       ;helper
|
|  (destructuring-bind ((a &optional (b 'bee)) one two three)
|      `((alpha) ,@(iota 3))
|    (list a b three two one)) → (ALPHA BEE 3 2 1)
|
`----

Does evaluating the above two forms in elisp land you in *Backtrace*
with something like this at beginning-of-buffer:

 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable bind-enquote)

If so, I would argue that the current elisp's implementation fo
`destructuring-bind' isn't exactly the panacea to keyword parsing you
claim it is.

By way of comparison this is what a recent SBCL returns:

CL-USER> (format nil "~a ~a" (lisp-implementation-type)
		             (lisp-implementation-version))
;=> "SBCL 1.0.45.3"

CL-USER> (defun iota (n) (loop for i from 1 to n collect i))
;=> IOTA

CL-USER> (destructuring-bind ((a &optional (b 'bee)) one two three)
	     `((alpha) ,@(iota 3))
	   (list a b three two one))
;=> (ALPHA BEE 3 2 1)

--
/s_P\

Re: Keyword args

[Helmut Eller]

* MON KEY [2010-12-12 04:49] writes:

>> Since we have destructuring-bind parsing plists is not very hard.
>
> No, we have _some_ of dbind...
>
> Following is the CL specs cannonical `destructuring-bind' example:
>
> ,----
> |
> | Examples:
> |
> |  (defun iota (n) (loop for i from 1 to n collect i))       ;helper
> |
> |  (destructuring-bind ((a &optional (b 'bee)) one two three)
> |      `((alpha) ,@(iota 3))
> |    (list a b three two one)) ’ (ALPHA BEE 3 2 1)
> |
> `----
>
> Does evaluating the above two forms in elisp land you in *Backtrace*
> with something like this at beginning-of-buffer:
>
>  Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable bind-enquote)
>
> If so, I would argue that the current elisp's implementation fo
> `destructuring-bind' isn't exactly the panacea to keyword parsing you
> claim it is.

This bug was fixed quite some time ago: 
http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=6408

Helmut

Re: Keyword args

[MON KEY]

> This bug was fixed quite some time ago:
> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=6408

Well not all _that_ long ago.
But yes, applying that patch fixes things here. Thanks.
Did this make it into the current pretest?

So, apparently it is true what you say, dbind is a panacea!

"Got &keys? destructuring-bind em.
 dbind - the elixir for all ones elisp ails." ™

--
/s_P\