Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[grischka]

> Emacs still supports older Windows versions where the shell is
> command.com [...]

Actually no, for more than one reason.  One being that GNU
make expands it's full path with forward slashes into $(MAKE)
which would do just nothing at all under command.com.

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 23:26:54 +0200
> From: grischka <grishka@gmx.de>
> CC:  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > Emacs still supports older Windows versions where the shell is
> > command.com [...]
> 
> Actually no, for more than one reason.  One being that GNU
> make expands it's full path with forward slashes into $(MAKE)
> which would do just nothing at all under command.com.

I didn't say we support _building_ Emacs on those platforms.  But we
do support _running_ Emacs there.  If you know of any problems that
would preclude that, please report them.

(Btw, for the specific problem of Make, its Windows port will never
use command.com as a shell.  Either you have a Unixy shell on your
Path or you need to have cmd.exe.  So for building on such a system,
the only way it can possibly work is if one has a sh.exe somewhere.)

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[grischka]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 23:26:54 +0200
>> From: grischka <grishka@gmx.de>
>> CC:  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>>> Emacs still supports older Windows versions where the shell is
>>> command.com [...]
>> Actually no, for more than one reason.  One being that GNU
>> make expands it's full path with forward slashes into $(MAKE)
>> which would do just nothing at all under command.com.
> 
> I didn't say we support _building_ Emacs on those platforms.  But we
> do support _running_ Emacs there.  If you know of any problems that
> would preclude that, please report them.

Since it didn't build I really can't tell whether it runs.

> (Btw, for the specific problem of Make, its Windows port will never
> use command.com as a shell.  

Sure it does.  Hence the problem with slashes, as above.

> Either you have a Unixy shell on your
> Path or you need to have cmd.exe.  So for building on such a system,
> the only way it can possibly work is if one has a sh.exe somewhere.)

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 10:27:08 +0200
> From: grischka <grishka@gmx.de>
> CC:  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > I didn't say we support _building_ Emacs on those platforms.  But we
> > do support _running_ Emacs there.  If you know of any problems that
> > would preclude that, please report them.
> 
> Since it didn't build I really can't tell whether it runs.

You could install the precompiled binaries from alpha.gnu.org,
prepared by Jason.

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[grischka]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 10:27:08 +0200
>> From: grischka <grishka@gmx.de>
>> CC:  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>>> I didn't say we support _building_ Emacs on those platforms.  But we
>>> do support _running_ Emacs there.  If you know of any problems that
>>> would preclude that, please report them.
>> Since it didn't build I really can't tell whether it runs.
> 
> You could install the precompiled binaries from alpha.gnu.org,
> prepared by Jason.
> 

Testing a recent from git on windows 98 under qemu shows only a
small unresponsive window (say 80x30 px).  So far to "But we
do support _running_ Emacs there".

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 17:10:47 +0200
> From: grischka <grishka@gmx.de>
> CC:  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Testing a recent from git on windows 98 under qemu shows only a
> small unresponsive window (say 80x30 px).

What is qemu?

> So far to "But we do support _running_ Emacs there".

Well, if you could try debugging where it is stuck, we could try
fixing what became broken.

Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Vincent Belaïche]

Hello,

I am suggesting the following lines addition to initialisation of
dired-guess-shell-alist-default:

--8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
;; info files
(list "\.info$"
      (cond
       ((eq system-type 'windows-nt)
	"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" \"%~pi\\dir\"")
       (t ; bash
	"for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"))
)
--8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---

I had proposed to Karl Berry to document this trick in the TeXinfo
manual, but he suggested that having this within Emacs would be a better
alternative.

I have tested the MSWindows command: it works fine for
me. However, I am unsure about the bash one.

Best regards,
   Vincent.

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>
> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 21:01:26 +0200
> Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>,
> 	Karl Berry <karl@freefriends.org>
> 
> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
> ;; info files
> (list "\.info$"
>       (cond
>        ((eq system-type 'windows-nt)
> 	"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" \"%~pi\\dir\"")
>        (t ; bash
> 	"for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"))
> )
> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---

Thanks.  However, the command you suggest for windows-nt will only
work with cmd.exe as the shell and only with latest versions of it.
Emacs still supports older Windows versions where the shell is
command.com which does not know about "%~pi".

So an alternative for older shells will be needed before this can go
in.

Also, I'm not sure I understand what is this command trying to do.  It
seems to try to install Info files in the subdirectory named literally
`dir' of the directory where those Info files live?

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Gilaras Drakeson]

>> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
>> ;; info files
>> (list "\.info$"
>>       (cond
>>        ((eq system-type 'windows-nt)
>> 	"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" \"%~pi\\dir\"")
>>        (t ; bash
>> 	"for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"))
>> )
>> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---

> Also, I'm not sure I understand what is this command trying to do.  It
> seems to try to install Info files in the subdirectory named literally
> `dir' of the directory where those Info files live?

"dir" is a plain text file into which install-info adds entries.

Gilaras

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Gilaras Drakeson <gilaras@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 10:11:24 -0400
> 
> 
> >> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
> >> ;; info files
> >> (list "\.info$"
> >>       (cond
> >>        ((eq system-type 'windows-nt)
> >> 	"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" \"%~pi\\dir\"")
> >>        (t ; bash
> >> 	"for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"))
> >> )
> >> --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
> 
> > Also, I'm not sure I understand what is this command trying to do.  It
> > seems to try to install Info files in the subdirectory named literally
> > `dir' of the directory where those Info files live?
> 
> "dir" is a plain text file into which install-info adds entries.

But why in the same directory as the original files?  That's not how
install-info is normally used.

RE: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Vincent Belaïche]

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Just to follow up the discussion:

1) on the issue on what does the command do, I think that this issue was closed by the dicussion: "dir" is a file that is at the same level as the info file to add. This is the normal way to make info files appear in Emacs info menu. 

2) On the issue of supporting older versions of Window: I am afraid that this is not possible if you want a DOS command. I don't think that there is any simple way to extract the dirname with a one-liner command in older DOS versions.

So probably the best thing to do for older DOS version would be to write it as:

"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" dir")

In that case it will work only if the info file is at the root of the current Dired buffer.

I am not sure how to disntiguish Windows version from within Emacs.

Another possibility would be may be to make a one line sh.exe command with explicitely invoking sh.exe in the command line. However I am not sure that sh.exe can be used this way. Also you would need to know whether sh.exe is on this machine or not.

Another solution would be that the command would be an Eshell command. Maybe if the command was a list ('eshell ...) instead of a string, then dired-x could interprete check is a an Eshell command, rathen than as a native shell (DOS, bash, ...) command. This would be the vest alternative to get rid of all these portability problems, but then Emacs users would have to be a bit more familiar with Eshell (which I am not)


Given that installation of info files is not that current, I think that the first alternative is simpler (ie omit the directory name for older version of DOS, and let the user care about it).

   Vincent.

> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 23:03:30 +0300
> From: eliz@gnu.org
> To: vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr
> CC: karl@freefriends.org; emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing
> 
> > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>
> > Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 21:01:26 +0200
> > Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>,
> > 	Karl Berry <karl@freefriends.org>
> > 
> > --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
> > ;; info files
> > (list "\.info$"
> >       (cond
> >        ((eq system-type 'windows-nt)
> > 	"for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" \"%~pi\\dir\"")
> >        (t ; bash
> > 	"for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"))
> > )
> > --8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<---
> 
> Thanks.  However, the command you suggest for windows-nt will only
> work with cmd.exe as the shell and only with latest versions of it.
> Emacs still supports older Windows versions where the shell is
> command.com which does not know about "%~pi".
> 
> So an alternative for older shells will be needed before this can go
> in.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure I understand what is this command trying to do.  It
> seems to try to install Info files in the subdirectory named literally
> `dir' of the directory where those Info files live?
> 
> 

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Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Stefan Monnier]

> "for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" dir")
[...]
> "for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"

Regarding these rules, I have a different question: how likely/common is
it for people to find *.info file and to use install-info on them?
Then the next question is: what is the shape of the most common way to
use install-info on such files?


        Stefan

RE: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Vincent Belaïche]

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Answers below...

> From: monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA
> To: vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 13:22:19 -0400
> CC: karl@freefriends.org; emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing
> 
> > "for %i in ( * ) do install-info \"%i\" dir")
> [...]
> > "for i in  * ; do p=`dirname \"$i\"`;install-info $i $p/dir\"; done"
> 
> Regarding these rules, I have a different question: how likely/common is
> it for people to find *.info file and to use install-info on them?

Well just to give some examples, I have downloaded the info file of Bash and that of Texinfo on my machine and I have installed them with install-info by hand. I also installed all the manuals that were coming with the MinGW tool-chain with install-info. I am also writing myself 3 manuals for emacs extension packages (one is for emacs-template which is still under discussion with Christoph Wedler, and the two other are for extension packages I am developping myself), and I had also to install them with install-info.

I recognize that it is not that often, but it happens...

> Then the next question is: what is the shape of the most common way to
> use install-info on such files?
> 
> 

There are a number of options to call install-info, like for any other commands. But this is also true for any of the commands that are invoked by means of the dired-x default shell guess. I think that the shape 

    install-info file.info dir

is the most common... but you should cross check this with Karl Berry...

  Vincent.

>         Stefan
> 
> 

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RE: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Drew Adams]

> > I have a different question: how likely/common is
> > it for people to find *.info file and to use install-info on them?
> 	
> Well just to give some examples, I have downloaded the info
> file of Bash and that of Texinfo on my machine and I have
> installed them with install-info by hand. I also installed
> all the manuals that were coming with the MinGW tool-chain
> with install-info. I am also writing myself 3 manuals for
> emacs extension packages (one is for emacs-template which
> is still under discussion with Christoph Wedler, and the
> two other are for extension packages I am developping
> myself), and I had also to install them with install-info.
>	
> I recognize that it is not that often, but it happens...
	
If you recognize that, how about simply customizing
`dired-guess-shell-alist-user'?

RE: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Vincent Belaïche]

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> > I recognize that it is not that often, but it happens...
> 	
> If you recognize that, how about simply customizing
> `dired-guess-shell-alist-user'?
> 
> 

I have already done that for myself a long time ago. 

I just wanted to share this information, so that Emacs is improved. If you don't think that it is an improvement, then please do not loose any longer time in this discussion, I wouldn't mind...

  Vincent.

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Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Stefan Monnier]

> Well just to give some examples, I have downloaded the info file of
> Bash and that of Texinfo on my machine and I have installed them with
> install-info by hand. I also installed all the manuals that were
> coming with the MinGW tool-chain with install-info. I am also writing
> myself 3 manuals for emacs extension packages (one is for
> emacs-template which is still under discussion with Christoph Wedler,
> and the two other are for extension packages I am developping myself),
> and I had also to install them with install-info.

I must admit that I don't compile packages by hand very often nowadays,
but back when I did that, I very rarely used install-info since usually
the info files were installed by `make' instead.

> I recognize that it is not that often, but it happens...

Fair enough.  To tell you truth, since this rule is only for files that
end in ".info" it doesn't have to be frequent, it only has to be more
frequent than other commands that one might apply to .info files.
So `install-info' is probably a good candidate, indeed.

> There are a number of options to call install-info, like for any other
> commands. But this is also true for any of the commands that are
> invoked by means of the dired-x default shell guess.  I think that the
> shape 

>     install-info file.info dir

> is the most common... but you should cross check this with Karl Berry...

That was my impression as well.  So why is the suggested command using
the weird `for' loop (which will make it apply to all kinds of other
unrelated files).


        Stefan

RE: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Vincent Belaïche]

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> That was my impression as well.  So why is the suggested command using
> the weird `for' loop 

The for is there mainly to extract the directory path, so that if you launch the guessed command on some foo.info file, foo.info is installed in the dir file that is in the same directory where foo.info is.

The for will also make it work in case of marking several files, but in my opinion this is not useful. The point is that in MSDOS I don't think that it is possible to get the directory name otherwise than with a for.

This `for' would be useless if there was some other mean to get the directory name (like Emacs setting some environment variable with the directory name before launching the command...)

> (which will make it apply to all kinds of other
> unrelated files).
> 

Well the user is supposed to mark only the info files to be installed. But as I wrote, the intention of for was not iterating, and probably I should not have proposed a for in the bash case.

  Vincent.

    

> 
>         Stefan



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Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Stefan Monnier]

> The for is there mainly to extract the directory path, so that if you
> launch the guessed command on some foo.info file, foo.info is
> installed in the dir file that is in the same directory where
> foo.info is.

At least on the POSIX side, the `for' does not help you get the
directory path.


        Stefan

Re: Initialisation of dired-x for install-info guessing

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 08:04:38 +0200
> Cc: karl@freefriends.org
> 
> 2) On the issue of supporting older versions of Window: I am afraid that this is not possible if you want a DOS command. I don't think that there is any simple way to extract the dirname with a one-liner command in older DOS versions.

Perhaps you could simply chdir to that directory when running the
command.  Then there would be no need to name the directory
explicitly.  But I didn't try that, so I may be missing something.

> I am not sure how to disntiguish Windows version from within Emacs.

You can look at the value of `system-configuration'.