Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Emacs-Lisp capabilities:

I feel a certain gap between the relative easiness, to
write a peace of code for personal use and the
dimension of the question, to implement that in
(SX)Emacs.

Altogether with the question if such an implementation
is recommendable at all.

Or to say it otherwise: There are lots of peaces of
code, see `map-file-lines' published on emacs-devel
yesterday, which look perfectly useful for people
knowing Emacs Lisp, regardless of an upcoming
implementation.

Needles to say: during development process only a
part of that kind of proposals will find its way
into the distribution.

There is some loss, as even these ideas, which don't
prove fit for implementation,
may be helpful for other programmers.

I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
interested might pin his code onto it.

An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
People should get push-permission on a low level,
anyone interested basically.

Right or wrong? Someone interested?


Andreas Röhler

--
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files
https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Gilaras Drakeson]

> [...]
> Or to say it otherwise: There are lots of peaces of
> code, see `map-file-lines' published on emacs-devel
> yesterday, which look perfectly useful for people
> knowing Emacs Lisp, regardless of an upcoming
> implementation.
> [...]
> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
> interested might pin his code onto it.
>
> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
> People should get push-permission on a low level,
> anyone interested basically.

How about designing a mechanism from within Emacs to search, browse,
post (push and then announce it somewhere), install, uninstall and
update a piece of code from launchpad? (or adapting elpa + rmail +
something else to do all this)

--
Gilaras

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Gilaras Drakeson wrote:
>> [...]
>> Or to say it otherwise: There are lots of peaces of
>> code, see `map-file-lines' published on emacs-devel
>> yesterday, which look perfectly useful for people
>> knowing Emacs Lisp, regardless of an upcoming
>> implementation.
>> [...]
>> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
>> interested might pin his code onto it.
>>
>> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
>> People should get push-permission on a low level,
>> anyone interested basically.
> 
> How about designing a mechanism from within Emacs to search, browse,
> post (push and then announce it somewhere), install, uninstall and
> update a piece of code from launchpad? (or adapting elpa + rmail +
> something else to do all this)
> 
> --
> Gilaras
> 
> 
> 
> 

at launchpad it's on bazaar, so access is not difficult and should already be built
in with some (d)vc-backend.

Too such a bill-board seems suitable to preserve, read and pick some code, not installing
it all and at once.

Andreas

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Miles Bader]

Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
> interested might pin his code onto it.

http://emacswiki.org

> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.

launchpad is not free software, correct?  [1][2]

That seems unacceptable.

Thanks,

-Miles


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchpad_(website)#Criticism
[2] https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+faq/195

-- 
Guilt, n. The condition of one who is known to have committed an indiscretion,
as distinguished from the state of him who has covered his tracks.

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Miles Bader wrote:
> Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
>> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
>> interested might pin his code onto it.
> 
> http://emacswiki.org
> 
>> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
> 
> launchpad is not free software, correct?  [1][2]
> 
> That seems unacceptable.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Miles
> 
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchpad_(website)#Criticism
> [2] https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+faq/195
> 

Thanks back for the info.

They promised to make it completely free yet.

AFAIU remaining restrictions don't affect the freedom of the code developed.

They are developing bazaar, Ubuntu and a lot of
other interesting stuff. Even a GNU Emacs account exists:

https://launchpad.net/emacs

From my experience: never encountered a such easy-going beginning. If it
looks a little bit like a kindergarten, well, therefor it's made easy.

Anyway, don't stuck with launchpad, should you know another or better tool.
Its just an idea so far.


Andreas

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Gilaras Drakeson]

>> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
>> interested might pin his code onto it.

> http://emacswiki.org

Currently, emacswiki is the de facto place for such things, but I think
it is not good enough. It definitely needs more maintenance
man-power. But also, I think there are two other specific ways to
improve emacswiki:

* official support 1: Emacswiki can be mentioned in a more visible place
  in the documentations, not just in MORE.STUFF, and a passing note in
  the FAQ. At least there can be an official consensus that emacswiki is
  _the place_ for these things.

* official support 2: having a mode for emacswiki that is _installed by
  default_, more than just webjump and some ERC functions. It could be
  just oddmuse.el, pointing to emacswiki by default.

If emacswiki cannot be improved, launchpad may provide an alternative
repository which is easier to maintain (a DVCS is easier to maintain
than a wiki, IMHO).

>> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
>
> launchpad is not free software, correct?  [1][2]
>
> That seems unacceptable.

It will be much nicer if they release launchpad as free software (if
they do as they claim on their FAQ). However, I find it hard to use only
free software web-services. (Even emacswiki uses a custom Google
search).

-- 
Gilaras

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Stefan Monnier]

> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
> interested might pin his code onto it.

That's what the emacswiki is for, isn't it?


        Stefan

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Karl Fogel]

Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchpad_(website)#Criticism
>> [2] https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+faq/195
>
> Thanks back for the info.
>
> They promised to make it completely free yet.
>
> AFAIU remaining restrictions don't affect the freedom of the code developed.

It's going to be (mostly) free soon.  I've updated
https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+faq/195.

This is not intended as an argument for or against implementing an
"Emacs Billboard" on Launchpad; I just wanted to clarify Canonical's
plans for Launchpad.

-Karl

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "Gilaras" == Gilaras Drakeson <gilaras@gmail.com> writes:

Gilaras> * official support 2: having a mode for emacswiki that is
Gilaras> _installed by default_, more than just webjump and some ERC
Gilaras> functions. It could be just oddmuse.el, pointing to emacswiki
Gilaras> by default.

I'm still willing to assign package.el -- the basis for ELPA -- to the
FSF, if there is interest.

Currently the server side of ELPA is not very open; all submissions go
through me.  This is something we could change, though.

While I think the Emacs Wiki is an awesome resource, I am wary of
hooking it directly to Emacs.  In my view the risk of trojans is too
high in this scenario.

Tom

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Tom Tromey wrote:
>>>>>> "Gilaras" == Gilaras Drakeson <gilaras@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> Gilaras> * official support 2: having a mode for emacswiki that is
> Gilaras> _installed by default_, more than just webjump and some ERC
> Gilaras> functions. It could be just oddmuse.el, pointing to emacswiki
> Gilaras> by default.
> 
> I'm still willing to assign package.el -- the basis for ELPA -- to the
> FSF, if there is interest.
> 
> Currently the server side of ELPA is not very open; all submissions go
> through me.  This is something we could change, though.

Hi Tom,

ELPA  is a valuable thing.
I thought at snippets, untested, whatever. Only to use from people,
who are able to read the code and have some impression, what might
happen if its run.

ELPA provides extensions, a quite different thing. Thanks BTW.
> 
> While I think the Emacs Wiki is an awesome resource, I am wary of
> hooking it directly to Emacs.  

Precisely. Thanks for the clarification. Got a lot of tips and things from there, but
always had a look before running the stuff. And still I may have overseen something.
A wiki is dangerous, I'm surprised it works that well so far.


In my view the risk of trojans is too
> high in this scenario.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Richard M Stallman]

    > An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.

    launchpad is not free software, correct?  [1][2]

As far as I know, Launchpad is a server, not a software release, so
that question is not directly relevant.  The real question about
Launchpad is whether we would want to specifically encourage its use
in this way.  I don't see a reason to do that.  Indeed, emacswiki.org
would be the natural first choice of site to do that with.

It is not clear to me that this is desirable at all -- it raises
complex issues.

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Richard M Stallman wrote:
>     > An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
> 
>     launchpad is not free software, correct?  [1][2]
> 
> As far as I know, Launchpad is a server, not a software release, so
> that question is not directly relevant.  The real question about
> Launchpad is whether we would want to specifically encourage its use
> in this way.  I don't see a reason to do that.  Indeed, emacswiki.org
> would be the natural first choice of site to do that with.


The key issue with bill-board for me is bazaar, the
experience with it, it's easy-going.

AFAIK emacswiki don't offer that.

At

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WikiQuestions

I read:

,----
| Question: Can I retrieve parts of EmacsWiki with a network distributed VersionControl system like DaRcs, SubVersion or CVS?
|
| Answer: Unfortunately, no.
`----

Bill-board idea comes from the reliability of
versions-control in combination with that easy access
and installing, launchpad provides.

It would be just a few keystrokes to do it.

> 
> It is not clear to me that this is desirable at all -- it raises
> complex issues.

Some questions may remain, yes.

However, there is another pro: as it's reflected to use
bazaar as vc for emacs, it might help to play
with before in just the way, a bill-board may offer.

Thanks to all BTW

Andreas Röhler

--
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files
https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/

> 
> 
> 

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Daniel Clemente]

Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
>
> At
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WikiQuestions
>
> I read:
>
> ,----
> | Question: Can I retrieve parts of EmacsWiki with a network distributed VersionControl system like DaRcs, SubVersion or CVS?
> |
> | Answer: Unfortunately, no.
> `----

  This was outdated. Now there is:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WikiDownload

  If you edit the wiki, please add dates to the information which can become outdated.


-- Daniel

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Daniel Clemente]

  EmacsWiki was suggested as the natural place to share code snippets, but not appropriate because of possible unwanted edits and because it doesn't integrate well with our tools (version control, Emacs, ...).

  I propose to reimplement EmacsWiki using org-mode pages. Org-mode ( http://orgmode.org/ ) is an oficial Emacs mode to take notes, define tasks to do, schedule appointments and deadlines, publish to several formats, and more. It uses just a plain text file with as much markup as you want. Version control works thus very well with .org files.

  This combination would do it:
- a Bazaar repository. This is where access control is done
- several .org files in it; including global pages with Emacs information and also personal pages with information and the each user's task list if they want.
- a script which export these pages to HTML (this is already done; see below)
- a web interface so that users can edit pages in a web browser

  A special branch or directory with restricted access could be used to hold the accepted code for inclusion with Emacs. Emacs could then branch this directory. Either this is restricted to people who signed the FSF papers, or some script is included in Emacs to download this branch at will.
  There can be a global section and also personal pages, where each users tracks their Emacs-related tasks (schedules, deadlines, TODOs, links to discussions, ...). Hey, even bugs could be discussed and fixed in Org better than in a bug tracker! Note that you get all the typical Emacs eye-candy while you are editing .org files: gnus, remember, bbdb, vc, diary, appt, ...

  Of course, other files could also be tracked and shared, like export scripts. Org-mode even includes an attachment system which can help organize files and add any metadata you want. Source code can be edited in place (with syntax colouring) or attached in files.


  This is not an utopia; this is already being used in Worg, a repository of pages related to Org-mode.
  Its main page is: http://orgmode.org/worg/
  You can fetch this branch (read-only) with: git clone git://repo.or.cz/Worg.git

  Registered users can push to that branch easily, can fork from that branch, merge again, etc.

  What is missing is a web interface to that repository which allows to commit each change that. But I understand that this is already what EmacsWiki does, since it commits everything to a repository (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SVN_repository). The new EmacsWiki branch could even import this Subversion branch.


  Many users have been contributing to Worg and it has been useful. It is a working demo of what EmacsWiki could do; in the future, maybe Worg is just a part of the greater EmacsWiki...


  Greetings,
Daniel

Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:

> Emacs-Lisp capabilities:
>
> I feel a certain gap between the relative easiness, to
> write a peace of code for personal use and the
> dimension of the question, to implement that in
> (SX)Emacs.
>
> Altogether with the question if such an implementation
> is recommendable at all.
>
> Or to say it otherwise: There are lots of peaces of
> code, see `map-file-lines' published on emacs-devel
> yesterday, which look perfectly useful for people
> knowing Emacs Lisp, regardless of an upcoming
> implementation.
>
> Needles to say: during development process only a
> part of that kind of proposals will find its way
> into the distribution.
>
> There is some loss, as even these ideas, which don't
> prove fit for implementation,
> may be helpful for other programmers.
>
> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
> interested might pin his code onto it.
>
> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
> People should get push-permission on a low level,
> anyone interested basically.
>
> Right or wrong? Someone interested?
>
>
> Andreas Röhler
>
> --
> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files
> https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Andreas Roehler]

Thanks a lot, Daniel,

so we proceed...

Andreas




Daniel Clemente wrote:
>   EmacsWiki was suggested as the natural place to share code snippets, but not appropriate because of possible unwanted edits and because it doesn't integrate well with our tools (version control, Emacs, ...).
> 
>   I propose to reimplement EmacsWiki using org-mode pages. Org-mode ( http://orgmode.org/ ) is an oficial Emacs mode to take notes, define tasks to do, schedule appointments and deadlines, publish to several formats, and more. It uses just a plain text file with as much markup as you want. Version control works thus very well with .org files.
> 
>   This combination would do it:
> - a Bazaar repository. This is where access control is done
> - several .org files in it; including global pages with Emacs information and also personal pages with information and the each user's task list if they want.
> - a script which export these pages to HTML (this is already done; see below)
> - a web interface so that users can edit pages in a web browser
> 
>   A special branch or directory with restricted access could be used to hold the accepted code for inclusion with Emacs. Emacs could then branch this directory. Either this is restricted to people who signed the FSF papers, or some script is included in Emacs to download this branch at will.
>   There can be a global section and also personal pages, where each users tracks their Emacs-related tasks (schedules, deadlines, TODOs, links to discussions, ...). Hey, even bugs could be discussed and fixed in Org better than in a bug tracker! Note that you get all the typical Emacs eye-candy while you are editing .org files: gnus, remember, bbdb, vc, diary, appt, ...
> 
>   Of course, other files could also be tracked and shared, like export scripts. Org-mode even includes an attachment system which can help organize files and add any metadata you want. Source code can be edited in place (with syntax colouring) or attached in files.
> 
> 
>   This is not an utopia; this is already being used in Worg, a repository of pages related to Org-mode.
>   Its main page is: http://orgmode.org/worg/
>   You can fetch this branch (read-only) with: git clone git://repo.or.cz/Worg.git
> 
>   Registered users can push to that branch easily, can fork from that branch, merge again, etc.
> 
>   What is missing is a web interface to that repository which allows to commit each change that. But I understand that this is already what EmacsWiki does, since it commits everything to a repository (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SVN_repository). The new EmacsWiki branch could even import this Subversion branch.
> 
> 
>   Many users have been contributing to Worg and it has been useful. It is a working demo of what EmacsWiki could do; in the future, maybe Worg is just a part of the greater EmacsWiki...
> 
> 
>   Greetings,
> Daniel
> 
> Andreas Roehler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
> 
>> Emacs-Lisp capabilities:
>>
>> I feel a certain gap between the relative easiness, to
>> write a peace of code for personal use and the
>> dimension of the question, to implement that in
>> (SX)Emacs.
>>
>> Altogether with the question if such an implementation
>> is recommendable at all.
>>
>> Or to say it otherwise: There are lots of peaces of
>> code, see `map-file-lines' published on emacs-devel
>> yesterday, which look perfectly useful for people
>> knowing Emacs Lisp, regardless of an upcoming
>> implementation.
>>
>> Needles to say: during development process only a
>> part of that kind of proposals will find its way
>> into the distribution.
>>
>> There is some loss, as even these ideas, which don't
>> prove fit for implementation,
>> may be helpful for other programmers.
>>
>> I've thought at a kind of bill-board, where everyone
>> interested might pin his code onto it.
>>
>> An account on launchpad seems suitable for that task.
>> People should get push-permission on a low level,
>> anyone interested basically.
>>
>> Right or wrong? Someone interested?
>>
>>
>> Andreas Röhler
>>
>> --
>> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files
>> https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/
> 
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
XEmacs-Beta mailing list
XEmacs-Beta@xemacs.org
http://calypso.tux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Gilaras Drakeson]

>   I propose to reimplement EmacsWiki using org-mode pages. Org-mode (
> http://orgmode.org/ ) is an oficial Emacs mode to take notes, define
> tasks to do, schedule appointments and deadlines, publish to several
> formats, and more. It uses just a plain text file with as much markup
> as you want. Version control works thus very well with .org files.

On a slightly related note, does info-mode has a significant benefit
over the current org-mode?  Is it imaginable to have an info-emulation
mode for org-mode?

-- 
Gilaras

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Tassilo Horn]

Daniel Clemente <dcl441-bugs@yahoo.com> writes:

>   I propose to reimplement EmacsWiki using org-mode pages. Org-mode (
>   http://orgmode.org/ ) is an oficial Emacs mode to take notes, define
>   tasks to do, schedule appointments and deadlines, publish to several
>   formats, and more. It uses just a plain text file with as much
>   markup as you want. Version control works thus very well with .org
>   files.

That's basically what's Worg [1].  It's a git repository of org-mode
files explaining tips'n'tricks around org-mode.  This could be extended
easily to capture all of emacs.

Bye,
Tassilo
__________
[1] http://repo.or.cz/w/Worg.git
-- 
Richard Stallman first words were actually syscalls.

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Richard M Stallman]

It sounds good as you've described it.  The best way for people to see
if it really is that good, and suggest changes, is if some of us
try visiting http://orgmode.org/worg/ and playing with it.
Then we could get some useful feedback.

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Bastien]

Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> It sounds good as you've described it.  The best way for people to see
> if it really is that good, and suggest changes, is if some of us
> try visiting http://orgmode.org/worg/ and playing with it.

I don't know if people on the list actually played with Worg but I just
set up ELBB (Emacs Lisp Bill-Board).  It works like Worg, but for Emacs
Lisp code.

The ELBB repository is hosted on gitorious:

  http://gitorious.org/projects/emacs-lisp-bill-board

I publish an HTML output here:

  http://lumiere.ens.fr/~guerry/elbb/

Changes made to the git repository are reflected on this website every
hour.

Please have a go and let me know if this is useful.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Daniel Clemente]

El dl, mar 16 2009, Bastien va escriure:
> Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> It sounds good as you've described it.  The best way for people to see
>> if it really is that good, and suggest changes, is if some of us
>> try visiting http://orgmode.org/worg/ and playing with it.
>
> I don't know if people on the list actually played with Worg but I just
> set up ELBB (Emacs Lisp Bill-Board).  It works like Worg, but for Emacs
> Lisp code.
>
> The ELBB repository is hosted on gitorious:
>
>   http://gitorious.org/projects/emacs-lisp-bill-board
>
> I publish an HTML output here:
>
>   http://lumiere.ens.fr/~guerry/elbb/
>
> Changes made to the git repository are reflected on this website every
> hour.
>
> Please have a go and let me know if this is useful.


Hi, sorry for the delay, and thanks for surpassing the theory and starting real projects.

  I have just some comments:

1. EmacsWiki's role is not about sharing Lisp code, but about Emacs in general: tutorials, tasks to do, discussion, questions, bugs, …
  It seems that ELBB's role is limited to code.

2. EmacsWiki can be edited anonymously; ELBB not.
  Maybe a test user could be created and the login date shared so that people can try it

3. EmacsWiki has a web interface
  Probably there are web interfaces to repository which can commit each edit or group of edits



  I think that ELBB is useful, yes, but is not as easy as EmacsWiki. If these things are solved, maybe some sample page can be imported to ELBB so people can experiment with content.
  Maybe an emacswiki-to-org exporter is needed. Are there generic exporters from EmacsWiki syntax to other syntaxes?



-- Daniel

Re: Emacs-Lisp Bill-Board

[Bastien]

Hi Daniel,

thanks for your comments.

ELBB is still alpha (not even beta), which means I don't advertize it
that much because I cannot make sure my timetable let me actively
maintain it.

> 1. EmacsWiki's role is not about sharing Lisp code, but about Emacs in
>   general: tutorials, tasks to do, discussion, questions, bugs, … 
>   It seems that ELBB's role is limited to code.

ELBB is code-centric, but I hope good documentation will help make this
code library more useful.  Depends on the users.

> 2. EmacsWiki can be edited anonymously; ELBB not.
>   Maybe a test user could be created and the login date shared so that
>   people can try it

ELBB already allows pseudo-anonymity, because on repo.or.cz nobody knows
you're a dog.  (I guess the username imadog is not yet taken.)

I also plan to add the mob user:

  http://repo.or.cz/mob.html

This user will be able to push changes to a dedicated branch and elbb
maintainers will be able to merge these changes.  

This is a limitation, but I hope we can go ahead anyway.

> 3. EmacsWiki has a web interface
>   Probably there are web interfaces to repository which can commit
>   each edit or group of edits

There is a web interface to see elbb evolution:

  http://repo.or.cz/w/elbb.git

There is no web interface to edit elbb directly.
But there is an emacs interface, it's called org-mode.  

When Emacs will know about the obby (or libinfinity) protocol, 
emacs users will be able to edit org-mode files collaboratively,
which will make projects like elbb much more attractive than web
projects like emacswiki.

>   I think that ELBB is useful, yes, but is not as easy as
>   EmacsWiki. If these things are solved, maybe some sample page can be
>   imported to ELBB so people can experiment with content.

Yes.  I have to work on it.

>   Maybe an emacswiki-to-org exporter is needed. Are there generic
>   exporters from EmacsWiki syntax to other syntaxes?

I don't know - maybe ask Alex Schröder?

Send me your repo.or.cz username, I'll be happy to add you as a elbb
user.  Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien