From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tobias Bading Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: icon-title-format vs. frame-title-format (Bug#61496) Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 12:40:37 +0200 Message-ID: <4920048a-aded-3588-50d2-4bea3c0c096b@web.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32701"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 05 12:41:07 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1puss6-0008JN-5C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 May 2023 12:41:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pusrr-0000Tc-HZ; Fri, 05 May 2023 06:40:51 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pusrm-0000T3-UZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 May 2023 06:40:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pusrh-0006TP-0H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 May 2023 06:40:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1683283238; i=tbading@web.de; bh=usW5SIJ30CUbMPH4lwmUsurII2tm6OnAh+KXzCXbE7g=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=s8kiPk/Z6ELxozsLkXdtyT6kdBT5IudxxmJ0X+YrOTBCGh8vrztmt/O9R4TN+O5Nr Mj+VUfjzqDeZv98MOqjFM4wyAIA+4f5S19P9+CNRlOuL0NrFMOhOrQCfipqxgpae6q 3FAZMrvMXT/p/tLGsmm6BBIIChhEDc/teB+mnJS8ZMoY9LaLqN2KwudIoc5JLMVxnK GGzUlcTMoFZS4cXE1CZVLZkNovREtPwfSUxLebTabU8k2NAzr05SxCPqh3pEZCgMC/ BCOAHKrE8t6GhsBLtF9hLcIXWZ3EDofjmLdEo8eKPQX8QKiYP6hpcR4q4P4CZ4J4P9 ao4CisTJDo3Og== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from [192.168.2.103] ([84.143.156.171]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVad4-1pkwiI0Gfs-00Razy for ; Fri, 05 May 2023 12:40:38 +0200 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/wJxg/utCDoRMgH4ReK50GUpYYzvVNzvvYOvUr2h6igpm9sQloF 4ffF6kg/woQcXk6a0NQAjYB9Ss9B8xjuy8WgOBd/E3yNbooqG4PJwHoSy6BulbuLjDXlf78 PDmdaex8BYBWTtHz9Vvk8F66ui0ksgD+Y5o4vZaRZ4lsWecikmxROErFxp2x2zjhe/mFXxv L3HPiblXiwU1EZQdUpB7Q== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ziFmd4JH20Q=;hswhGzJ3+lXwyrVmgghFf7Ceai9 2cT0SNDLPoxT1zd7uSCLHdxKydRbI1ZBuBeVq9kz43qAH+lxFDu6cf6XN2qgcd14l5naO9x64 V0t7IBVHnEUqCkhROcT7MyetJB+ylWXSAUdfDxYu5gR1q7Fmn3uPvInare/A0zeU8sXZ7IJlF yvwP0X/Q2HJ4dz7zFlGWahE8IMNpNfQe6aePAgUCmiWjI3Vz41mjTg9gRLAyRpx/uZ+yVkDzu AhtsceZ/frLojhYwRdAHij7w6iVE14uPNaUdaCEFoafdkv0zADG/nceo96J9gYgHPiVF/+NXI ifDfKEbjGentNi8QX9SiYLtaoTPEKGp8xOQq4aZFyZceyiWuYt0otLpAUmTIXor1gCHC7A+G/ phIunslPHMaDNCbTbNgEiZ3FHCTxVV3cF/DihX/WL6GoiXcm8AKHShBUecc0sBpiYnydHH3Z6 4ari6DnZcZgKZd9a3Q6FK+r7hADu/6zgV9oj44trugWnfTC4H+yEgp+8gU15cZt7L8soGPoNq CizbcNwz+b4SgMhU69nVPDVHopP2VPrxJYahwdVlcfdg+sWriZDJmapK18Bsl7s0c4tEdXEM8 U0Wp+ZylNfx0eKV3Xe0BPuR9N9DWTXI6PJC5PV+AYoNZpe4iN6rYkA2s/+a39OshBP1uyO44T h+aISwMcp2VdHU6KUU8zJy/xsWdRu6fe8wGddoWWpRWnUMXAwtJpGaYtGAHEUOjUFYdIK++f+ gjdDhUHkiCaU9Vd3yEKRgV58TlgTVmJHdTbaZRPXRplH8ZxI5VlpAcDs9WazIw28fI1cE81f Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.72.192.78; envelope-from=tbading@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -70 X-Spam_score: -7.1 X-Spam_bar: ------- X-Spam_report: (-7.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-4.28, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305869 Archived-At: Oh god, what have I done? XD But holding back isn=E2=80=99t one of my strong suites, so here goes nothi= n=E2=80=99=E2=80=A6 The X Window System may have introduced and/or (re)used certain terms, lik= e =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciconic=E2=80=9D for different states= of top-level windows, but that was ages ago. That the term =E2=80=9Ciconic=E2=80=9D was chosen is very un= fortunate IMHO. It contains the word =E2=80=9Cicon=E2=80=9D and thus suggests/implies that= a currently invisible window is represented by some icon somewhere. Window managers li= ke mwm may have chosen to actually represent invisible windows this way back then. Today, a lot of free software desktop environments, window systems, window managers etc are available. Some may present invisible windows as icons, others as buttons in window lists, a thumbnail in a dock, or whatever. Some may not show them at all, except for when you use some keyboard shortcut to switch between windows. Not to mention states somewhe= re between visible and unvisible, like a window that has been rolled up so th= at only its title bar remains. Most of those representations for invisible windows weren=E2=80=99t even invented yet when the X developers chose to u= se the term =E2=80=9Ciconic=E2=80=9D. On 05.05.23 02:15, Po Lu wrote: >> What's wrong with saying "iconified or minimized"? > > Because ``minimization'' is a form of iconification. > >> [=E2=80=A6] > > ``minimize'' is not modern terminology.=C2=A0 It is simply terminology u= sed > by proprietary window systems. I wasn=E2=80=99t aware that =E2=80=9Cminimized=E2=80=9D was considered to = be a proprietary term, or a term created by a vendor of proprietary software. To me it is simply an appropriate term to describe a top-level window that is currently not visible, no matter how the user=E2=80=99s desktop environment of choice re= presents such a window. It doesn=E2=80=99t imply that icons are used. It simply mea= ns that the window (or all windows of that application together) is represented in some minimal or small form. So to me the term =E2=80=9Cminimized=E2=80=9D = makes more sense than =E2=80=9Ciconic=E2=80=9D. On 05.05.23 07:29, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> ``minimize'' [=E2=80=A6] > > It is nowadays used by some GNU/Linux desktops (which basically > copycat everything that Windows introduces, as if there are no other > UI ideas under the sun). That global menu bar feature in GTK / GNOME 3 =E2=80=94 whatever it=E2=80= =99s official name in GTK may be =E2=80=94 wasn=E2=80=99t copied from Microsoft, it was copie= d from Apple. The same goes for that Spotlight search emulator I=E2=80=99d say. Personally, I don=E2=80=99t have a problem with free software providing us= eful features that remind me of features I have seen somewhere else before. Microsoft and Apple may have their =C2=A9s, =C2=AEs, =E2=84=A2s and whatno= t, but that=E2=80=99s a different story. What I *do* have a problem with is free software like GTK and GNOME copying Apple=E2=80=99s goddamn =E2=80=9Cuse our software exactl= y as we provide it =E2=80=94 or don=E2=80=99t use it at all=E2=80=9D attitude. Why did I stic= k with GNOME 2 as long as humanly possible and then switched to MATE? Because GNOME 2 and Compiz wer= e customizable as f*ck. Every user had the freedom of choice to use whatever look & feel and features they wanted. Last I checked GNOME 3 had no suppor= t for panels at all and that alone make it unusable for me personally. . . . What were we talking about again? Right, that frame-title-format doc string=E2=80=A6 XD I didn=E2=80=99t intend to start a mega-thread about terminology. If Emacs= doc strings had see-also sections I would have simply asked to please put a =E2=80=9CSee also: icon-title-format=E2=80=9D into frame-title-format=E2= =80=99s doc string. I=E2=80=99m happy with the added (setq icon-title-format t) in my ~/.emacs= , which made Emacs 29 behave like Emacs 26.3. I just thought a little hint in the doc string might help other people who upgrade their Emacs like me and wonder about those changing window titles. Tobias