From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: About the :distant-foreground face attribute Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:57:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <48ae6a47-0eb2-4670-8269-ef2810a1ba80@default> References: <87bnzo9cja.fsf@gnu.org> <59B7E7FC-48D0-4737-B1BB-FFAC5BA9E07A@swipnet.se> <874n5f3162.fsf@gnu.org> <83fvozf86g.fsf@gnu.org> <87r48javwe.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnzmfjxe.fsf@gnu.org> <87bnzlyvwb.fsf@gnu.org> <83wqi9cakl.fsf@gnu.org> <87zjn5584t.fsf@gnu.org> <8738kwydon.fsf@engster.org> <871u0dwiyv.fsf@engster.org> <87fvot2c18.fsf@gnu.org> <1495EA48-4F4D-424F-B918-71CAF57C67B2@swipnet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389574720 15212 80.91.229.3 (13 Jan 2014 00:58:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:58:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel To: =?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIERq5HJ2?= , Chong Yidong Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 13 01:58:46 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Vra-0001vj-34 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 01:58:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40051 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W2VrZ-0005jb-Pz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:58:45 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57126) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Vr5-00059e-KH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:58:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Vqx-00016c-1M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:58:15 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:28891) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Vqm-00015j-6L; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:57:56 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s0D0vr0N012644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:57:54 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0D0vojw004926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:57:51 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0D0vokj028700; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:57:50 GMT In-Reply-To: <1495EA48-4F4D-424F-B918-71CAF57C67B2@swipnet.se> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168261 Archived-At: > Count this as an objection. (i) means reopening a fixed bug BTW, > don't forget that. On the contrary. It fixed a non-bug, and introduced a regression. It forces Lisp code to access and manipulate actual face foregrounds (what is really shown, not counting effects of other faces etc.) in a new, kludgy way. > 1) We are talking about a replacing a feature that has no > outstanding bugs, and has been in place for about 2 months. Do you want me to file a bug for this regression? > 2) The only reason too replace it is some personal feelings about > "clean design", based on unknown principles, that are not documented > in any Emacs or GNU document. Among the reasons to remove this regression are: (a) it breaks existing Lisp code and complicates future code, (b) it is lousy UI, going counter to selection in other apps, (c) it is not needed for anything, (d) it treats foreground differently than background (asymmetric), and so does not solve the problem it purports to, since both `region' and font-lock can specify either foreground or background, or both, (e) it tries to work around a non-Emacs problem of certain platforms providing poor default selection background colors. > 3) The code for this proposal will be messier. Distant-foreground > is quite separate in the code, you can easily find any place where > the source handles to it. This proposal suggests modifying > foreground, thus changing a lot of places where foreground are > handeled. Not only is this bound to introduce bugs, but the > feature is not as easily seen in the source. The introduction of an additional face attribute that is not independent of attribute foreground, and that affects the perceived foreground of the face, and so breaks the one-to-one relation between a face's foreground attribute and the face's perceived foreground, is an ill-conceived, error-prone hack. It complicates any Lisp code that tries to deal with the actual face foreground based on its foreground attribute. And that's in the best of cases: future code. Existing code is simply broken, if it expects the face's foreground attribute and appearance to correspond. > And all this during a feature freeze? This new "feature" should never have been approved. It is simply an unfortunate regression. It should be pulled out pronto. > It makes feature freeze kind of pointless if any feature can be > replaced willy nilly based on a persons design feelings. Feature freeze is the time to test the product, including changes that have been made. This change does not pass the smell test, let alone any usability tests for Lisp code. It will even confuse users in UI terms, when they try to check the foreground at some position. > But this is Stefans call.